Sheep, Goats, and Nonsense

by metatron 12 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  metatron

  So, you wanna leave the 'truth' and drift away?

  Well, Brother Elder is gonna show up at your house and tell you:

  "You must obey the Watchtower and keep selling their magazines
  because the Bible says you must do what the 'anointed' tell you
  to get salvation. Jesus said so in Matt. 25:31-46 and that's
  what the 'sheep' have to do"

  Wrong!

  The 'sheep' say "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
  thirsty and give you a drink, When did we see you a stranger
  and receive you with hospitality, or naked and cloth you?"

  The 'sheep', standing at Final judgement, at The End
  ARE CLUELESS. THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHO CHRIST'S REPRESENTATIVES
  WERE.

  Clearly, the 'sheep' CANNOT be Jehovah's Witnesses, who attend
  5 meetings a week and have "obey the 'faithful slave'" pounded
  into their skulls endlessly! Christ's brothers, were "STRANGERS"
  to them, PEOPLE THEY HELPED BUT DIDN'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!

  Furthermore, the folks who are "hungry, thirsty,strange, naked,
  sick, or in prison" ARE NOT A BUNCH OF OLD MEN IN BROOKLYN.

  How do I know? Because those guys are not hungry, thirsty,
  unknown strangers, or in prison (I'll give you 'sick' but
  since only medical science can help them, you can't do anything
  about it!)

  Jesus was NOT describing MEN with established POWER over others,
  that's why they are hungry, naked, etc.!! It can't be a bunch
  of Well Fed Theocrats!

  Jesus WAS recommending CHARITY as a REQUIREMENT for SALVATION
  being shown towards folks YOU DON'T KNOW and can't identify
  as HIS REPRESENTATIVES, because the sheep are CLUELESS ABOUT
  WHO THEY ARE!

  They have taken a beautiful scripture that recommends charity
  and WARPED it into a pretext for cultlike obedience.

  Jesus said it best:(Matt. 15: 6)

  "and so you have made the word of God invalid
  because of your tradition."

  Amen

  metatron
• 

  patio34

  Metatron,

  That was an excellent refutation to the WTBS corruption of the text. Of course, when you look at it with a brain operating instead of being in a stupor as JWs must be, it becomes obvious which understanding is the correct one. Great work!

  Pat
• 

  Fredhall

  Why don't you fools stick what Matthew 24:31-46 says?
• 

  JosephMalik

  Jesus WAS recommending CHARITY as a REQUIREMENT for SALVATION
  being shown towards folks YOU DON'T KNOW and can't identify
  as HIS REPRESENTATIVES,

  Meteron,

  Finally, someone else that can reason. Good work. And since our Lord died for all mankind everyone is His brother. This term is not limited to believers. So now we see the big picture and how everyone in the world that ever lived will be judged which is the basis for the resurrection. Makes no difference if they even believe in God. What they are as human beings is what it will be all about.

  Joseph
• 

  Kenneson

  Fred,

  Is that why Jws have made so many predictions of the end?
• 

  Dawn

  Metatron - you did a great job. I just want to put in my 2 cents about one subject - what is required for salvation...

  Jesus WAS recommending CHARITY as a REQUIREMENT for SALVATION
  being shown towards folks YOU DON'T KNOW and can't identify
  as HIS REPRESENTATIVES

  Nothing is REQUIRED for salvation except belief in Jesus Christ as your savior. Salvation is a free gift - it can not be earned. However, a person's good heart condition should give forth "fruit" such as charity, kindness, love, etc. etc. But there is no ACT that we can perform to gain salvation. Likewise - there are many people with good hearts in all religions - which is why you will find Charity, Compassion, and Love not only in Christians, but in Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, etc.

  The reason I wanted to point this out is because this concept is completely unheard of by a JW. They completely believe in being saved by works. And they work...work...work...try...try..guilt...guilt...guilt.. but we can never earn our way into heaven. If we could - then what good would Jesus' ransom be? Why die for our sins in the first place if we could earn our way there by doing good works?

  Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light" - he alone can give the free gift - not the Society, not the Elders, not yourself by your WORKS - noone can give it to you but Jesus and YOU DON'T EARN IT.

  I know what you meant Metatron - just pointing something out to those newbies or lurkers
• 

  JosephMalik

  Nothing is REQUIRED for salvation except belief in Jesus Christ as your savior. Salvation is a free gift - it can not be earned. However, a person's good heart condition should give forth "fruit" such as charity, kindness, love, etc. etc. But there is no ACT that we can perform to gain salvation.

  Dawn,

  This is not true. In fact the scriptures under discussion prove this point beyond question. Such acts (or works if you prefer) are the very basis for judgment. What you are referring to is works of Law. This is a contextual argument not a literal one and such works of Law are not required. I know the verses are applied the way you are applying them in this general way but this is an entirely different matter and the context under which such statements were made must be understood. Works are essential, be they natural or deliberate as the scripture brings out. After all such works are the basis for our Justification. And such works are simple humane acts not biblical ones. No book or magazine sales required.

  James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

  James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

  1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

  2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

  Joseph
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  Dawn

  I do not believe that it is the works that save us. If that were so - what need do we have for Jesus? If I could do enough good works to be saved on my own then what's the point?

  The "works" definately come into play - but it's the REASON behind them. If I go witness to others, give to Charity, am nice to everyone, go to church, just so that I look good to the community - am I saved? If not, then why......I did all the WORKS that were required?

  Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--

  On the contrary - the WORKS are a natural fruit of our heart condition. If the WORKS aren't there - that's a sure sign that the HEART is not in the right condition.

  Joseph - I think we might be saying the same thing but I'm not sure - basically that it is not the WORKS that save a person but their FAITH, and if they have FAITH the WORKS will come naturally.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Dawn said: I do not believe that it is the works that save us. If that were so - what need do we have for Jesus? If I could do enough good works to be saved on my own then what's the point? |

  Dawn,

  The point is not that we can work our way to salvation. Nothing that we can do will ever justify us with God. This is a contextual argument. Our Lords sacrifice is the only thing that satisfies or qualifies man for such an outcome and this can be applied in our behalf. But our Lord will not apply it in our behalf without such works or deeds as described in this discussion. And this He will do for everyone who qualifies regardless or their religious affiliation or lack of one for that matter. This is another matter entirely if you can understand what I am saying.

  Dawn said: The "works" definitely come into play - but it's the REASON behind them. If I go witness to others, give to Charity, am nice to everyone, go to church, just so that I look good to the community - am I saved? If not, then why......I did all the WORKS that were required?

  The texts under discussion give no such reasons behind them. They simply identify decent human beings, people that posses such natural qualities, not forced ones. What you are describing are works of Law be it the Law of Moses or the rules of the Watchtower or other Church. These are things that Paul and finally James argued against but have been misapplied by many religions today. Such attempts to gain salvation miss the point entirely. The Jews could gain justification by keeping the Law at one time and thus assure their salvation (not continue to live on and not die as the WT teaches.) The WT has distorted this provision with their stupid teachings but all this has now changed. We are no longer under such Law but under Grace. Still this does not mean that such Grace is automatic and not dependent upon the individuals appreciation of it. I know this may be difficult for some to grasp but we cannot ignore the texts that prove works or deeds are the very basis for such judgment or the application of this sacrifice in our behalf.

  Dawn used: Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God

  That is what is behind this text. Salvation or Justification is now available to all apart from such Law, the Law many Ephesians were still keeping by the way and a Law that the Gentiles never had. So Gentiles never had access to such Justification until now. We should not take this text out of this context the way many do. Notice how Paul makes this point in the text you used:

  12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

  Joseph - I think we might be saying the same thing but I'm not sure - basically that it is not the WORKS that save a person but their FAITH, and if they have FAITH the WORKS will come naturally.

  Not quite the same thing but your view is much like the Baptist view. Judgment is now available to all Jews and Gentiles based upon what they are as human beings not what they believe religiously. This is very different as it applies to all people in all Nations that ever existed not just to Christian ones. That is the contextual difference that few see. There will be a better outcome for those in Christ of course. Such ones will obtain their justification in the first resurrection. But this again is another matter.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 7 July 2002 8:45:7
• 

  SixofNine

  Is this faith/works stuff in the previous few replies the "nonsense" part, Metatron?

  Another good post Met.