Quantum - "not one negative anti-mormon cl...

by alex_recovering_mormon 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • alex_recovering_mormon
    alex_recovering_mormon

    Not one negative anti-mormon claim has stood up to scrutiny? Baloney - here is a list for your leadership to honestly respond to. The LDS church has no foundation of truth at all since the First Vision is uncredible, the Book of Mormon & Book of Abraham are obviously fiction, the church plagiarized their temple ordinances, they are clueless on the nature of God, etc.

    Ten Very Difficult Concerns on the LDS faith

    1. SCIENCE AND LAMANITES -- Recent DNA research overwhelmingly claims that Native Americans (aka "Lamanites") are not Hebrew descendants as Joseph Smith asserted. According to anthropologists the Native Americans are primarily from Siberia/Mongolia and came to North America much earlier than 600 BCE. No DNA evidence even hints that the Book of Mormon's claim that a Hebrew group is the principal ancestor of the Native Americans is accurate. The DNA evidence of Native Americans coming overwhelmingly from Siberia/Mongolia is consistent with the well-established consensus theories of archaeologists, anthropologists and linguists. During the early 19 th century the idea that Native Americans were Hebrew descendents was an idea written and promoted by Ethan Smith (no known close relation to Joseph Smith) and possibly others before the timeline given by Joseph Smith for when he claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

    2. BOOK OF MORMON HISTORICITY -- Archaeologists from BYU and elsewhere are quoted as saying there is no validity to the topography of the Book of Mormon, and no evidence of the existence of any of the groups in the Book of Mormon. There are more than a dozen items and domestic species mentioned in the Book of Mormon that have never been known to have existed in the New World, such as: Egyptian hieroglyphs, metal swords, functional wheels, chariots, chains, carriages, brass armor, coins, glass, wheat, figs, olives, grapes, barley, sheep, oxen, goats, asses, horses, bulls, elephants.

    3. BOOK OF ABRAHAM -- In the 1830s Joseph Smith obtained some mummies originating from the catacombs of Egypt which contained some papyri that Joseph Smith declared were written by Abraham the Old Testament patriarch by his own hand upon papyrus. Joseph Smith claimed to translate some of these writings into English by the power of God and the Church accepted this translation as true, correct and a scripture called the Book of Abraham (with its three facsimiles). Around 1846 the papyri were lost from the Church but returned in the late 1960s after being discovered in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Since the 1830s the modern scholarly field of Egyptology has developed more maturely due to discoveries like the Rosetta Stone and the widespread dissemination of scholarly research information. This has made it possible to easily translate ancient Egyptian writings and verify Joseph Smiths claims whereas this was nearly impossible to do in the American frontier during the 1840s. Since the papyris rediscovery many of the worlds top Egyptologists have translated the papyri/facsimiles and have declared that Joseph Smiths translation is absolutely incorrect and that the papyri and facsimiles are common funeral text/engravings for individual(s) who lived after 500 BC in Egypt and they have nothing to do with Abraham at all. No group or body of scholars even pretends that Joseph Smith's divine transcriptions are partly accurate.

    4. METHODS FOR RESOLVING SERIOUS CONCERNS -- It is difficult to understand how the methods of the LDS leadership and scholars on the serious issues regarding the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are completely honest. (1) The present-day leadership has consistently instructed members to proselyte the religion with people everywhere and that the members will be held accountable by God if they dont do all they can to help others learn about the religion and overcome any concerns they might have which keep them from progressing in the religion. Yet the leadership leaves the members to fend for themselves on these very difficult and important issues. This is most disturbing particularily regarding issues on the Book of Mormon because the Church teaches that its the foundation of the religion and that the Church is true if and only if its claim of the Book of Mormon being true scripture from the principal ancestors of the Native Americans. Members who suggest that the leadership should at least try to be honest and do all they can to help others sincerely understand a solution to these issues are subject to excommunication. Its well known that the leadership has purposely kept hidden much information on these issues from its members. (2) Those who do speak out publicly to defend the faith on these issues (such as scholars at BYUs FARMS) use tactics like ignoring inconvenient facts, revising history or by simply making up unsubstantiated scenarios which require incredible mental gymnastics to be considered remotely possible. On the Book of Abraham there are two key arguments often used by apologists to explain this dilemma (a) we havent found the correct papyri (yet we definitely have the facsimiles and they are clearly mistranslated by Joseph Smith), (b) the papyri wasnt actually the writings of Abraham but a catalyst for receiving revelation (yet we have many eyewitness accounts of Joseph Smith boldly declaring that the papyri was actually written by Abraham himself and the title page of the Book of Abraham even says by his own hand upon papyrus). On the Book of Mormon issues two popular theories have emerged - (a) the Lamanites mixed with natives from Siberia/Mongolia shortly after their arrival in the Americas (but the Book of Mormon clearly states that these people were kept hidden from the knowledge of all other people and that it was preserved for them after the Jaredite demise until the coming of European explorers after 1000 AD), (b) the Lamanites were never a large people and we have yet to find them (but the LDS leaders and Book of Mormon make it clear that this was a great civilization which was indeed the principal ancestor of almost all if not all of the Native Americans and that they will play a major role in the Churchs mission in preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ).

    5. POLYGAMY and Earthly/Scriptural LAWS -- In 1835 the Church introduced a book called the Doctrine and Covenants which was accepted by the membership as the word of the Lord and canonized as scripture. It contained an article (titled Section 101) which specifically forbade members of the Church from practicing polygamy. During the life of Joseph Smith no known attempts by him to remove this article from this book of scripture are known. When the Saints moved to Illinois the laws of that State also specifically prohibited polygamy. While in Nauvoo Joseph Smith wrote the Articles of Faith which contained phrases we believe in obeying, honor and sustaining the law and we believe in being honest, true, chaste. Yet Joseph Smith was secretly practicing polygamy in Nauvoo while publicly denying its practice. He also entered polygamous relationships behind the back of his wife Emma. Other Church leaders were also commanded to enter polygamy during this Nauvoo era but the Church leaders issued denials in discourse, with their own scriptures and even using excommunication as a tool to keep up the public image that they were not practicing polygamy. A newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor was started by some formerly faithful members who were outraged about the deceit over polygamy and Joseph Smith unlawfully ordered that the newspaper be destroyed after its 1 st publication. The destruction of this press is what resulted in Joseph Smiths incarceration at Carthage in June 1844 where he was killed in a gun battle. Finally in the 1850s after their arrival to Utah the Church leaders publicly announced that they had indeed been practicing polygamy despite all their previous denials. During the next three decades Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Joseph F. Smith and other top Church leaders publicly declared many times that polygamy was essential for exaltation and that it was Gods will that if the Church would ever give up the doctrine and mortal practice of polygamy then they would be damned. They were also taught that the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom was only reserved for those who would be polygamists. During this early era in Utah the 1835 Section 101 was removed from the Doctrine and Covenants and replaced by the present-day Section 132. There is also a myth in the Church that the practice of new sanctioned polygamous marriages was discontinued almost immediately in 1890 after the Manifesto was issued by Wilford Woodruff when in fact the practice continued to be sanctioned and extended privately by members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for over a decade while publicly denied in order to help facilitate the efforts for Utah Statehood and the Church getting their properties, temples and rights restored following their punishment and disenfranchisement for their defiance against the laws on polygamy. In fact Wilford Woodruff himself married an additional plural wife just 7 years after the Manifesto was issued. During the Reed Smoot Senate investigation around 1904 it was disclosed affirmatively by Church leaders that the Apostles (including Church President Joseph F. Smith) were purposely breaking the law and their promises to the federal government regarding polygamy. The Church finally took action to prevent all further authorizations of new polygamous marriages. In the present-day President Gordon B. Hinckley has said that polygamy is not doctrinal while many of his predecessors have declared that it was indeed doctrinal and absolutely essential to be practiced in this life for exaltation. The Church also continues to teach that God and his doctrines are unchanging.

    6. MASONIC SYMBOLS AND WORDINGS -- The LDS Church heavily emphasizes to its members the importance of the Temple and the Endowment ordinance. Since the Nauvoo era the Church has received considerable criticism for plagiarizing the Masonic rites. In 1836 the first LDS temple was dedicated in Kirtland, Ohio and the Church teaches that Joseph Smith received the temple ordinance keys there. The ordinances performed in the Kirtland temple contained none of the unique characteristics that are commonly associated with Masonic rites. While in Nauvoo Joseph Smith became a Mason and six weeks later he introduced the Endowment ordinance which the Church teaches is essential for salvation. Those who are familiar with the Freemasonry rites and the Endowment will clearly recognize the exact plagiarism that exists in many places. Some early LDS leaders taught that the Masonic rites were apostate versions of the Endowment handed down and distorted from the time of King Solomons temple yet Freemasonry experts reject this analysis. In addition the Church leadership has made many changes to the Endowment since its introduction during the 1840s which lead many scholars to conclude that there are more differences between some portions of the 1840s Endowment and the 1990s Endowment than there were differences between some portions of the 1840s Masonic rites and 1840s Endowment. So if the Masonic rites were really an apostate version of the Endowment then one must accept that fewer changes were made to portions without prophetic guidance during 2700+ years in the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Middle Ages, Renaissance and American colonization eras than with prophetic guidance during the past 150 years where recordkeeping skills have generally been far better than those available in earlier times where printing presses and modern technology tools were unavailable. Today the members are not told by Church leaders about the similarities between the Masonic rites and the Endowment. Even if the defenders views about this issue are correct and the Endowment was indeed revealed from God to Joseph Smith its still undeniably PLAGIARISM because Joseph Smith knew about the Masonic wordings before he introduced the Endowment and no credit to the Masons for these wordings are fairly acknowledged by the Church today.

    7. NATURE OF GOD AND OUR POTENTIAL -- During the last 2 decades of his life Brigham Young consistently taught that Adam was indeed God the Father. Many defenders of the faith like to claim that the critics twist his words out of context yet most honest scholars who carefully study his entire discourses attest that Brigham Young actually believed that Adam was indeed God the Father. Church leaders privately acknowledge that they believe that this is what Brigham Young meant. Some modern-day Church leaders like Spencer W. Kimball have publicly declared the Adam-God doctrine to be false. A belief is rampant in the Church that LDS Church leaders regularily talk to God face to face. The Church also teaches that God is unchanging. Yet how could a true prophet believe that God was Adam yet just a century later another true prophet believe that God is not Adam? Joseph Smith once taught that God was once a man and that men may become gods. LDS leaders have consistently counseled members that if they will do all that God expects of them in this life then they will become gods in the hereafter. This goal has been a great cause for so many members sacrificing so much in this life because of this goal for the hereafter. Yet the current Church President Gordon B. Hinckley has seriously confused the members about whether such a goal is really in the works. In several media interviews he was asked about this teaching of God once being a man and he said I dont know that we teach that its more a couplet than anything. Essentially it appears to observers that President Hinckley is confirming that the Church really doesnt know what is going to happen in the hereafter and that all these ideas about God being a man and men becoming gods is just a couplet or myth.

    8. GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT -- Church youth and members are taught that the leadership is blessed with special spiritual gifts such as the gift of discernment. This teaching is used as a fear tactic to get members to both gossip about each other to Church leaders and to discuss very personal private matters with Church leaders. Yet from 1925 to 1943 one of the prophet, seer, revelator, apostles named Richard Lyman (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve) was secretly practicing polygamy and committing adultery yet was never detected for 18 years by any of the other leaders and the members-at-large were required to accept him as a prophet, seer, revelator, apostle or else be considered apostate. Once Lymans activities were reported he was quickly excommunicated but it remains an acknowledged fact that his violations of the LDS chastity rules went undiscerned by his leaders for 18 years. During the 1980's a living Mormon prophet and many apostles were personally duped by the charisma of master-forger Mark Hoffman (since convicted of murder), who presented them with documents he specifically designed to interest them by containing controversial historical data which he anticipated they would want to suppress.

    9. DISCLOSURE & ACCOUNTABILITY -- The Church carefully guards access to its detailed finances, funding and statistics while it makes tremendous effort to gather such information and use it to further its purposes. The Church does not allow its general membership to know any typical details that large non-profit organizations usually release. Tithing (often defined by church leaders as 10% of a persons gross income) are mandatory in order to be considered temple worthy and many people have had to be excluded from being able to attend the wedding of a son, daughter, brother, sister or other close relative/friend because of this tithing requirement. LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income and temporal blessings from paying tithes, yet Utah (where most residents are LDS) remains one of the poorest states in the US, ranks among the highest in personal bankruptcies, and ranks among the highest in use of anti-depressant medications.

    10. IS HONESTY IMPORTANT? -- The Church teaches that complete honesty is necessary for salvation. They teach that we will be accountable to God if we only tell part of the truth because this is dishonesty. They teach that there are NO acceptable reasons to be dishonest. The living prophet today (Gordon B. Hinckley) tells us that honesty is the essence of integrity and demands that we be straightforward, unequivocal, in walking the straight and narrow line of what is right and true even at times when it might seem enticing or easier to cheat. The Church has also taught that all truths will consistently meet the challenges of their critics and emerge triumphant and that only error needs to fear freedom of expression. They key scripture introduced by the missionaries in the 1st discussion is "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7) and this scripture is used to emphasize that the Church's foundation rests on God conducting his affairs on the earth through prophets today. Yet its difficult for many honestly seeking the Spirit to really understand how the Church leaders can really be following their own teachings to be completely honest in leading and guiding and that they have ever really repented of any times when they may have been less than completely honest .

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    Alex:

    Well, You've left the church...How long were you in the church and how long have you felt this way about the list of 10 you deposited here.

    This is a JW site with certain rules for posting. I'm sure this is against them. quickly however, everyone of your claims are valid, but they have been answered many times and the answers are readily available if you link up with Mormon apologists web sites.

    There will always be things in the church of Jesus Christ which will be misunderstood...It was so when He was upon the earth and the teacher and it continues to be. Most main line Christian chuches Don't expect much of their adherents. Their only rule is you must declare that you believe in Jesus Christ and that will be sufficient for your reward in heaven. ...This is a false teaching but is so forcefully guarded that any church claiming that Christ actually expects more than just lip service out of their members challenges their belief and their membership roles.......while The LDS church is growing many of theirs are declining. Pentacostals put on an exiting and enteraining show and many people attend their services....but are most of them real members or are they just there for the feel good service.......

    The point is ....it is not easy to be in Christs true church...look what happened to the early Apostles and members. the persecution end with them having to give their lives for the cause.....Just as Joseph Smith willingly did along with his brother Hyrum. The persecution continues but the church not only survives but thrives.

    You tried to find answers to your questions by asking the persecuters and people who make a living slaming the church,

    No negative claims have stood the test of time with this church. Quite the contrary. As time goes on the teachings of Joseph Smith become stronger and stronger and many are fearful of the landslide of truth which is over taking them.

    Quantum THE DEFENDER OF TRUTH!

    Edited by - QUANTUM on 12 July 2002 10:31:53

  • voltaire
    voltaire

    This is an interesting discussion. Sometimes it helps to be able to view a situation as an outside observer. This could easily be a discussion between a JW and a former JW. Change some of the details and the flavor or feel is pretty much the same. No offense intended, but are all religions really that far-fetched and unreasoning in their belief that THEY are the only ones with the truth? Funny thing is that all 6,000,000 witnesses would agree with Alex and shake their heads at Quantum, but not be able to see that they are no more than slightly altered versions of any other fundamentalist religion. The doctrines are different but the irrationality is the same.

  • gsx1138
    gsx1138
    There will always be things in the church of Jesus Christ which will be misunderstood

    If this is the case then you should not be trying to convice people that the Mormon church is the true religion. If there is no way for you or any other mormon to reasonably explain your dogma and origins and explain away criticisms then you cannot make any claims of truth. Truth is not just supported by facts it is supported by facts from all angles. You can't say, "Mine is the true religion except for blah, blah, blah." When you are trying to convince someone that your religion is the Truth you are trying to convince them that what they think is wrong thus the burden of proof falls on you. If there are holes in your theology that are covered over with "It's Gods mystery, you gotta have faith, you just have to believe." then you have not presented enough data to claim "Truth".

    Don't try and blast alex because you sound just like a JW who wants to make excuses for not wanting to believe someone because they are an "Apostate". You produced your evidence for the mormons on this an ex-JWs site so I think you have no basis for talking about the rules of this forum.

    Author
    Topic: LET THE EVIDENCE BEGIN Read 1357 timesBe the 1st to rate this thread
    QUANTUM
    Senior Member
    Posts: 118
    Since: Jun 24, 2002

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    LET THE EVIDENCE BEGINJul 11, 2002 17:47

    PLEASE REFER TO THE FOLLOWING

    http://farms.byu.edu/free/transcripts/index.html

    Begin with Daniel Peterson's Evidences for The Book of Mormon

    The entire site is filled with scholars who are recognised in their fields, from many different university backgrounds, and which are apologists for the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTERDAY SAINTS.

    Keep in mind, for those of you who are x JW's....The WTS has never had a scholarly arm to their church. Our church believes in education.

    Utah has produced more scientists than any other state per capita, since the early 1920's

    I think he has a right to respond.

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    VOLTAIRE

    YOU CAN'T BE THAT IGNORANT...The WTS has not and is not standing the test of time...every negative thing said about the WTS IS TRUE and can be shown to be the case.

    LDS church is laughing in the face of their detractors. and nothing can or ever will be proven in a negative way against the church...somebody ...try to be specific!

    Q!

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    Quantum, you keep asking for specific challenges. They are offered and you merely respond by saying that such criticisms are answered on Mormon apologist websites. I think it is time for you to go away now. You are no You Know.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Well, You've left the church...How long were you in the church and how long have you felt this way about the list of 10 you deposited here.

    Again, one cult sounds just like another. this is exactly the sort of thing a JW would say when presented with damaging information against the Watchtower by someone who left the organization. Because he is classified as an "apostate," you feel you can safely dismiss whatever he says without actually considering whether it is true or not. This is called an ad hominem argument (literally, "against the man"), and is used by people who cannot attack the substance of an argument, so must resort to attacking the preson presenting it.

    This is a JW site with certain rules for posting. I'm sure this is against them.

    I can't imagine why his posting anti-Mormon arguments here would be against the forum rules, if your posting of pro-Mormon arguments isn't. We aren't restricted as to topic here, Simon pretty much lets us discuss whatever we want to. And his post was presented respectfully, without bad language or invective. So, no, I don't see how this could violate any forum rules.

    quickly however, everyone of your claims are valid, but they have been answered many times and the answers are readily available if you link up with Mormon apologists web sites.

    So are his claims valid or not? In any event, you are the guy who has been crowing in another thread about how nobody asks you any specific questions. Well, here is a person who has presented you with ten perfectly reasonable issues that appear to argue strongly against the truth of Mormonism. This, I would think, is a perfect opportunity for you to show your stuff. So do you respond by giving detailed answers, so that everybody reading this thread can instantly realize how vapid his arguments are? No. As in other threads, you sidestep the issues completely with a vague reference to the answers being available on unnamed Mormon apologist web sites. May I remind you yet again that you are the one coming to us, presenting yourself as an apologist for the Mormon faith? We weren't just all hanging around before you got here, hoping someone would come along and give us all an opportunity to investigate Mormonism. You came to us, trying to bring your beliefs to us as something of value. So it is up to you to make your presentation and defense, not up to us to go looking for the answers. If you are prepared to present Mormonism intelligently, then at least some of us here would be willing to listen to what you have to say (which is not to say that we will necessarily agree). But if, as appears to be the case so far, you expect us to do all the work of converting ourselves for you, and you really have nothing positive to say, then the least you could do would be to shut up.

    Most main line Christian chuches Don't expect much of their adherents. Their only rule is you must declare that you believe in Jesus Christ and that will be sufficient for your reward in heaven. .

    You misrepresent the teaching of Christian churches. Declaring that you believe is not the issue. Really believing and trusting in Christ is what results in salvation. Saying you believe is irrelevant, if it is not actually true. A faith that is complete enough to bring salvation will also produce good works, but it is the faith, not the works, that save.

    This is a false teaching but is so forcefully guarded that any church claiming that Christ actually expects more than just lip service out of their members challenges their belief and their membership roles.......

    The teaching I have briefly outlined above is a scriptural teaching. What Christ expects of Christians are the works that are produced by saving faith. These works are a natural outgrowth of salvation, not something we have to force ourselves to produce. When churches (organizations) start to dictate what Christ expects, rather than letting him speak for himself from the scriptures, you have the beginnings of cultic thinking.

    the persecution end with them having to give their lives for the cause.....Just as Joseph Smith willingly did along with his brother Hyrum.

    As has been pointed out in other threads, Joseph Smith was being held in jail to be tried for serious crimes. He died in a gunfight trying to escape. This hardly sounds like the way Jesus would have handled a situation like that.

    You tried to find answers to your questions by asking the persecuters and people who make a living slaming the church,

    Whose words are no less valid than the words of those who make their living promoting the church. Another ad hominem argument. You cannot respond effectively to the substance of their arguments, so you attack them personally.

    No negative claims have stood the test of time with this church.

    This is a red herring. You are assuming the truth of Mormonism, taking that as a starting point, and then trying to put the burden of proof on the shoulders of critics to prove their "negative claims". You still dont understand. This stuff may fly in a LDS church among members. But when dealing with outsiders (such as here), the burden of proof is upon you. You have to start from scratch with us, and prove that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, that the BOM is inspired, that the LDS church is God's organization. It's not up to us to refute those things, it's up to you to prove them to us. What we might more properly claim is that no positive claims have ever been substantiated with the LDS church. There is no evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith was a true prophet or that the BOM is inspired. Nor do Mormons try to prove these things. Instead, they encourage investigators to pray for a "testimony," hoping that experience will fill in what evidence cannot.

    the church not only survives but thrives.

    If thriving growth and membership is the evidence of having truth, then we should all be Roman Catholics.

    Edited by - NeonMadman on 12 July 2002 12:11:24

  • Valis
    Valis

    *L* Cygnus You Know that's right...*LOL* I guess I'll have to add QUANTUM to my bullshit list....did you see the first post he made w/all that crazy tie in stuff and wouldn't come out and say it was Moronism? He then moves on to the EVIDENCE thread, another pice of crap...now this, which I have doubts about as far as multi accounts....all this sudden Moronism must be coming from one person...either that or "New Light" from Joseph Smith's canal........BTW, how are you feeling?

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Francois
    Francois

    If you change the names and dates and points of divergence, this is the same argument that ex-jw have about their involvement with a cult.

    I still haven't heard anything about the method of Js. Smith's discovery of the "golden" plates. That method was the white salamander. Well known technique of god, using salamanders and other things that crawl upon the ground on thier bellies to spread da troof of his word - like quantum.

    The most interesting book I ever read about the Mormons was "The Mormon Murders." Now THAT was interesting. Seems if you've got some inside goodies on the Mormons, they won't just DF you, they'll kill you. Nice bunch.

    Francois

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Persons who defend the Jws or Mormons truly have my sympathy. Any belief system created by humans will have error. I have a good friend who is a Mormon, and the politics are the same as the Dubs.

    I agree with Raymond Franz, " Christianity itself is the true faith, not any one religion." Pastor Russell was right (for once) when he said, "religion is a snare and a racket."

    Edited by - thichi on 12 July 2002 12:50:5

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