"Conscience" - who makes the rules?

by eyeslice 11 Replies latest jw friends

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  eyeslice

  As Witnesses, we were frequently counselled to either do or not do things on the basis of not injuring the consciences of others. But how often was it a case that the consciences involved were those of the elders, not the rank and file?

  To give an example, I used to always grow a beard whilst I was on vacation. Note, I am not particularly hung up on the right to wear a beard, I do not wear one now and I was never too bothered about shaving it off when I returned from vacation.

  However, one year I didnt shave the vacation growth off immediately. I took the group study on the Tuesday, conducted the ministry school on Thursday (bearded elder on platform!) and attended an elders meeting on the Friday. I actually shaved it off for the Sunday meeting. Anyway, all the comments I got from the rank and file were complimentary; "I like your beard", "it really suits you", "are you going to keep it?". At the time not a word was said by any of my fellow elders.

  A few weeks later, I had a lift home from an elders meeting by the PO who proceeded to offer me counsel on the beard wearing. "You know you could stumble ones in the congregation, you might offend their consciences", he said.

  "Hang on a minute", I replied, "as far as I can see the only person that might have a problem with it is you, and you are an elder, and therefore, you should be mature enough not to be stumbled over such a trivial thing". As you can guess this didnt go down too well but he didnt have much of a leg to stand on, as when questioned, no one else had actually complained to him.

  On another occasion, the topic of sisters showing bare midriffs when dressed casually came up at an elders meeting. You know the sort of short-ish tops that are popular with young girls now days. In my view these were not that immodest. Usually these sisters wear these with jeans - certainly you would see more flesh if a sister wore shorts on a hot day down on the beach.

  But again, it was a case of stumbling others. I questioned who it was that was being stumbled. It turns out just to be the elders. "In some countries, such as India showing a bare midriff (i.e. when a woman wears a sari) is acceptable but showing bare shoulders is not", I observed, "so provided that these sister are not being overtly immodest, it is nothing that we should get involved with". To no avail though, elders were assigned to seek out and counsel the offending sisters!

  Anyone else got any similar elders consciences stories?

  Edited by eyeslice to add quote marks which had disappeared

  Edited by - eyeslice on 13 July 2002 9:31:46

  Edited by - eyeslice on 13 July 2002 9:33:15
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  DIAMOND

  One time after a Sunday meeting the wife and I went food shopping. We went home and changed clothes first. At the grocery store we ran into a local elder. He was still in is suit and tie. My wife had changed into a pair of jeans and a short top that showed her belly button and nothing else. The Elder looked at both of us as if we had just killed his mother. It was crazy. Then later that week we got a visit from a good friend. Not an Elder or Servant or anyone like that. Just a sister we were close to. She talked to us about being modest in our dress etc. ect. We knew exactly what was going on.

  But I must agree. She would have showed more if she would have had on shorts a top and sandels.

  Diamond
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  Matty

  I remember my father talking about an elders meeting he attended where the following subject came up:

  "Should sisters be allowed to wear culottes (trousers/pants that look like skirts) at the meeting and on field service?"

  This was an actual documented part of the agenda of the meeting. Anyway, after much deliberation it was decided that they should not, as they are not real skirts. Sisters are not allowed to wear trousers to the meeting and on the ministry, even if the trousers don't actually look like trousers as it might become a cause of stumbling. My father thought it was the most preposterous discussion he had ever heard.
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  Gopher

  The leadership of the WT Society (represented locally by your elders, who ALWAYS mind their own business) make up man-made rules and then pass them off as "what your conscience should be".

  Of course we're all born with a conscience (that inner voice), even the Bible says that. What we feel about certain things is really a personal choice for our own conscience.

  An example of WT-imposed conscience I can think of : the Bible has no specific rules about masturbation. Yet the WT in its literature rails against this natural, common practice to no end. With the result that a young JW may be overwhelmed by unnecessary guilt. Oh yeah, and you cannot (according to the Watchtower magazine) be involved in this so-called "unclean" practice and hold a position as ministerial servant or elder.

  So... how many single servants or elders are 100% free of that practice? Or if they aren't free, how many go around with a guilty conscience (needlessly imposed by the organization), or worse yet, how many actually go to their elders and make confession that they're unworthy of their position?

  Just my .02. The above is all theoretical, of course.
• 

  SYN

  MY GOD! Look, that Elder has a beard and he's on the platform! Oh the horror! Oh the humanity!

  It's unbelievable how petty some of the Enlightened Ruling Class in the Kingdom Halls can be at times. I got counselled for so many things it wasn't even funny. Once I died my hair platinum blonde, and I got counselled for that. (Apparently changing the colour of one's hair is unscriptural. Apart from Samson, I don't recall HAIR being mentioned in the Bible!) I got counselled for leaving my shirt untucked after field service (dang, I hated tucking my shirt in and still do!)

  But the Sisters got the brunt of the counsel. My sister was repeatedly counselled for, amongst other ludicrous things, having a dress that actually was above her knees at the hem (the horror thereof is unspeakable), baring her belly button (this will surely get her cast out of the New System), and wearing high heels, even though she looked incredibly stylish in them.

  What a bunch of petty cranks.
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  DakotaRed

  What haven't we been "counseled" on? Once, early on in my days of borgdom, I received the "privilege" of being a mike handler. It was the first time I was asked and I accepted. What any failed to discuss, though, was that I was the only mike handler that day. The KH I attended had six microphones for the cong and the attendance that day was higer than normal, a little over a hundred people. Being my first time and the only handler, to say I was busier than a one legged cripple trying to stomp out a fire in an ammunition dump would be an understatement. Not one brother got up to help until about 30 minutes into the Watchtower study. Afterwards, the elder I studied with took me aside and "counseled" me because I wasn't fast enough getting the mikes to people and I had gum in my mouth and my jacket unbuttoned. Being the good little newbie dubbie I was then, I just accepted the counsel and walked away thinking to myself, "why didn't you get up off your lazy a** and help out?"

  Another time, right after I remarried to a dub, an elder took me aside as the elder body was disturbed over my "heaviness" in handling the new family. My infraction? Prior to remarrying, the now step-kids used to run and jump and play inside the KH after meetings, jumping from the stage and over the seats. Now, maybe I am bit old fashioned and not enlightened, but I looked upon treating the inside of the KH as an upholstered jungle gym as a less than desireable attribute to teqach children. When I "explained" to this elder that even the Watchtower says that children should be respectful of the KH, he said that the elders were just concerned due to the kids not running and jumping around anymore. My "heaviness?" Telling the now departed kids simply not to play inside the KH.

  It seems that no matter what you do or what values you may have as an individual, someone will find fault and "counsel" you for it. LOL, I even had one elder comment that when giving my next talk, I shouldn't wear a sport jacket and slacks but must wear a suit.

  Lew W
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  Francois

  I had the beard thing, too, as you can tell from my picture. And the amazing thing at the time was that I was totally innocent of any awareness that wearing a beard was frowned upon. I was at friend's house and one of the enlightened elders showed up and said, "I wish I had your courage." Of course, I had no idea what he was talking about and said so. When I was told, I was flabbergasted. "Why would anyone care about that?" I just didn't believe it. "Well, the brother said, just keep on and see what happens."

  I did keep on. And all privileges were removed, because I wouldn't budge. Appeals to my own conscience were met with the claim that the scripture about using conscience to guide you didn't mean MY conscience, it meant the ELDERS conscience. When I told them that was absurd, they really took offense.

  When I asked what was the scriptural authority preventing me from wearing a beard, I was told the ban wasn't scriptural, it was organizational. Then I asked for the scripture that gave authority for organizational requirements to over-ride my scriptural rights and obligations. They couldn't answer that one of course, because there is no such scripture.

  Then I told them, later when I was obviously on my way out, that as long as they tolerated C.B. Mitchell as an elder in the congregation that they lacked the moral authority to demand to even meet with me, much less ask me any questions. Any of you from the southeastern US, especially around the Atlanta area would likely know CB (now deceased), and be aware that if he didn't fit the scripture about certain shepherds who were "skinning the sheep" then no one did.

  For instance, at an assembly in Macon, the society announced that it was OK for sisters to wear something or other about which there had been controversey. At the very next meeting, CB (who of course had been against giving the sisters the freedom) made a remark about it saying, "Even though the society has given their approval, it will be interesting to see if the sisters at Bethel begin to wear [whatever it was]." I immediately shot my hand up and asked, "CB, you've confused the issue. Are the sisters free to wear what they choose in this regard or not?" He had to back down. But he was after me then until I finally told them to go piss up a rope. Interesting, huh?

  Of course, none of these proscriptions have anything at all to do with anyone's conscience, modesty, or anything of the kind. The WTBTS is a high-control cult. Without exercising high control, it wouldn't be what it is. It must control everything about which it can come up with an excuse - no matter how tenuous. So it's beards, moustaches, pants suits, bare midriffs, and on and on and on until you've just got a belly full of that bullshit.

  I say they're a cult, and I say fuck 'em.

  Francois

  Edited by - Francois on 13 July 2002 11:17:19
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  bad_associashun

  a beard on the platform- HA! That's a good one.

  Very shortly after my hubby & I had began to pioneer he was the only male pioneer), the CO gave a talk on personal grooming/hygeine, looks DIRECTLY at my husband and says, "We wouldn't want to be a pioneer looking like the Marlboro Man." (referring to his mustache)

  Honestly, I never did pay much attention to the 'careful not to stumble your brother' syndrome the org tries to inflict for control. If a person can be shaken from their belief in God by such small things as a mustache, beard, midrif tops, they didn't have much of a firm belief anyway.
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  Siddhashunyata

  Ditto on the beard issue. Also had a visit from the elders about my son's bumper sticker "Skate Boarding Is Not a Crime". Seems it was stumbling someone (anonymous). My reply was that the stumbled person should stop by and we will take it off "together". No takers.
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  minimus

  Conscience matters are dictated by the Governing Body. If they say it is a conscience matter, then it is. You can wear a beard, after all , Jesus did, THEN it's o.k. NO word from gb ...no can do....gb tells you what is Bible trained.