Tempering expectations to reality

by gravedancer 12 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  gravedancer

  As one who has been reading posts this evening I find it odd that many of the XJW's here are wondering why every JW who sees a program like Panorama doesn't immediately quit the cult (yes I said cult).

  Well its a rather obvious explanation, in my opinion. Simply put "you cannot argue against faith with facts". The reason being is that JW's have been through some serious conditioning:

  • If they were converted they gave up their families who did no follow suit
  • If they were raised as JW's they have only known one group of friends
  • They are taught that everyone who is not a JW is going to die but as long as they remain JW's they will be preserved through Armageddon.
  • Their beliefs are based on a framework and the framework itself is based on the utterances of the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Questioning the slave leads to questioning of the framework.
  • They take great comfort from their beliefs (the framework). They might not actually want to question their beliefs or hear a dissenting view. They have given up careers, university, freedom of speech, gender equality, sexual freedom, many hours, thinking for themselves, the pursuit of material items and so much else for their beliefs. In return they have been offered membership and acceptance in a worldwide brotherhood (where they can find support and friends in most any country on earth).

  So is it denial? Yes it is. But we all need to understand and realise the reality. We point to 23,000 offenders out of 6 million - that is less than 0.04% of the membership (probably no higher than the percentages across the public at large in their minds). They can find ways to justify this stuff.....

  The bottom line is that we need to be patient with such ones. The reality is that the WT will not immediately crumble....we need to manage our expectations otherwise we are becoming believers in a cause not based on realistic outcomes. Expecting the collapse of JWs is exactly the same as expecting the collapse of Catholicism. The best case we can expect is an adjustment of policy over time just as we have seen with the Catholics, IMHO.

  You all know my views, I am a non believer ....don't shoot the messenger but feel free to argue against my message.

  GD

  (edited to correct a typo)

  Edited by - gravedancer on 14 July 2002 23:0:3
• 

  Siddhashunyata

  Sound reasoning but you must factor in the "myth" of Holy Spirit and Angelic direction. Most Witnesses became members because they believed this organization was different , that it had Divine protection and guidance. Your scenario is accurate but it translates ,not to acceptance and assimilation , but to an increase in neurotic behavior. This is already observable on JW website chat rooms . The future is unpredictable but it will be disasterous for the rank and file if there is no let up. They are facing personal religious crisies. Everything hinges on momentum.
• 

  mommy1

  When Dateline came out with the molestation cover ups I thought sure my Dad would have at least called me about it. I was molested by a "brother" and my Dad told Elders and They asked the sicko if he did it and he said no. So my Dad has first hand knowledge about this problem. I do not know how he can be so blind, I thought this would be an eye opener for him.
• 

  Xena

  Great points Grave!

  I was talking with my nephew the other day and he has finally realized that the reason most of his friends have stayed is because that is where ALL their friends are. We have quite a few homeschooled JW kids here too, that went from homeschooling to pioneering...they don't know anything else!

  As for older people, well to have given your entire life to something and then admit or even contemplate the fact that it may not be the "truth", that would be devestating to say the least!

  It is a difficult religion to exit for a large number of reasons!!

  lol Go US, huh? We made it out!
• 

  deddaisy

  this may seem off the subject at first, but it's frightenly similar to the Witnesses' behavior......

  did anyone happen to see the girl in the box story on one of those investigative type shows last week? It was a re-run so I'm not sure what year the incident took place.....anyway this couple picked up this girl hitch-hiking, think she was about 20 years old, and ended up kidnapping her. The husband was a real freak and literally hung this girl by chains in the basement, blind-folded and tortured her. (I'll try to make this short, but it was a complex story...) This torture went on for months before he began raping her. The ugly wife would just take care of their 8-month-old baby while her ugly, sadist husband raped and beat this girl that he kept in chains. He convinced this girl that he was in an organization that traded sex slaves and that if she didn't obey him, he'd trade her to an owner that would really be rough on her and he'd also find and kill her family. He even made her sign her name to a contract stating she was his slave. This went on for years, it got to the point where he allowed her in the yard to do work and she never tried to escape because she had signed the slave contract. the couple moved and she had to help dig a new torture chamber for future victims. get this, they kept her in their waterbed frame under their waterbed for years! (the box) and only let her out to eat and go to the bathroom, or do a little work!!!!! This guy kept her, torturing her, for SEVEN YEARS!!!!!! He even finally dropped her off to visit her family, who thought she had been murdered, and she NEVER TOLD HER PARENTS WHAT WAS GOING ON..... so finally, the wife finds religion and tells this girl that her husband is lying about this slave organization and allows her to leave......did she call the police? no....the police found out because the wife confessed to her pastor and the pastor contacted the authorities.......they questioned the girl, and she confirmed that they had kidnapped, tortured, raped, beat, and kept her confined in a small, dark, frame under the bed for SEVEN YEARS....

  the point? well the court system had a difficult time comprehending that in seven years, this girl had never tried to escape, never confided to her parents while she was there for a day but instead left again with the husband, and endured that amount of physical and mental torture and never contacted the police when freed....PLUS, the defense introduced at court, LETTERS THAT SHE WROTE TO THE HUSBAND AFTER SHE FINALLY ESCAPED PROFESSING HER LOVE FOR HIM....

  the narrator, at the start of the show, said behavior like this is not unusual in captives toward their captors, and alot of members of RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS........I believe he said it's called the "Stockholm Syndrome" .....He said Stockholm something......the mental state is worn down and after awhile the captives begin to be dependent on the captors .....he mentioned how it is not unusual for some victims of captors and religious groups to want to return to them because they believe that the captors are like their family, and their real families are now the outside world........

  anyway, sorry, didn't think this would be this long when I started......I have to admit though if I had never been in contact with JWs and saw firsthand how so many remain faithful to a organization, blinded to its hypocrisy, I would have never bought the idea of a Stockholm Syndrome....actually, they commented that for what that girl went through, she did good just to be a little "weirded out" at first, a lot of people would have permanately shut down mentally....

  it's a very fine line though with the Witnesses between what they can't see and what they don't want to see.......

  Edited by - deddaisy on 15 July 2002 3:11:10
• 

  BeautifulGarbage

  Hey Grave, nice post!

  I can't remember who posted this, but I found it enlightening. Basically, those that defend the WTS, and it's policies, are not so much defending the Org itself. But, defending their own assocation with it. So, to accept that the WTS protects pedophiles, means that they also participate in the protection of them. Indeed, an extremely difficult concept to accept. It's much easier to defend and deny. As evidenced by many of the emails sent to BBC from JWs. One JW apologist when as far as to write that he didn't want to event talk about child molestation because it was too "negative". It is that kind of response that can boggle the rational mind.

  Deddaisy,

  Being the true crime novel fan that I am, I read "Girl In A Box" years ago. Can't remember how many, but it had to be at least 10 years ago. Shocking, isn't it? Even now, I find it hard to believe that she never went to the police on her own.

  Andee
• 

  Farkel

  gd,

  : don't shoot the messenger but feel free to argue against my message.

  Nothing to argue. You made good, solid points.

  Besides, since you've admitted to having an IQ of only 35, I'm even more impressed!

  Good to cya back.

  Farkel
• 

  deddaisy

  "Even now, I find it hard to believe that she never went to the police on her own."

  Andee, it was definitely a weird story......I had nightmares just from watching the report.

  it's wild about her not going to the police because it's not so different than the behavior of some Witnesses......can you imagine a parent not going to the authorities when their child is molested? yet it's obvious that a lot of JW parents don't......

  what does that say about the control that the organization has gained over them? sounds frightenly similar to the girl in the box and the wacko that kidnapped her....

  GD, interesting topic.....I tend to believe that the WTS will not completely crumble...........if the WTS can pull the s--t that it already has and still have members, it will most likely always have members..........some people just will never get it....

  edited to edit..........

  Edited by - deddaisy on 15 July 2002 4:9:45

  Edited by - deddaisy on 15 July 2002 4:16:4
• 

  LyinEyes

  This post is along the lines of something I was thinking about yesterday, why did I stay in the WT for so long?

  I was raised in the borg, and never looked into any other religion. Never watched a tv program that had a bad word to say about the WT , and walked away from relatives speaking against my God. I totally equated Jehovah God with the Organization, it was one in the same for me. Growing up this way , you have only the WT as your whole life. There is nothing outside of it.

  I searched my mind yesterday to try and remember why I so strongly beleived that it was God's organization. One thing I can think of from very early childhood has to do with some kind of mind control issue. We as JW children were taught that praying to Jehovah and asking the right things in accordance to his will, would get us results. And WOW,,, sometimes it really seemed like Jehovah himself was listening to you, like your sick mom gets better after you pray all nite; you suddenly feel this overwhelming courage to stand in front of the class and explain why you don't celebrate Xmas. I did this and I felt a warm surge of what I was sure was God's holy spirit, how eles could I have stood in front of all and tell how I knew I was right. What about being so afraid to give your #3 talk on stage and praying for help, and all of a sudden you feel calm? I hope I am explaining what I am talking about here,,,,, an actual feeling ,, thinking you literally have God's holy spirit. Of course I know now that , that was simply mind over matter, we were told we could stand those test with God's power and we did. So each time this happened we were so sure it was another testimony to God's power and how interested he was in each of us. It seemed to build our faith in him and therefore the WTBS. As a child you can not underestimate the power of seeing is beleiving, you are told what to look for by a mind control organization and you see it. It takes many years to learn and to see it for what it really was. I have been out a year and I still have days , I doubt myself, like I am still programmed to self destruct if I stray away from what I was programmed to do. I think it is especially hard on those who also come from homes where there was child abuse. Honestly being raised a JW is in itself child abuse , IMO, but that is another topic. I think that is why I was so depressed and physically sick as an adult while in the borg. There were things deep in my conscience that I knew JW's were wrong about, not just their rules , but teachings . But I realized that I didnt want to know on a conscience level what was really going on. I felt I had too much to lose. I am glad that I took the chance to test my faith,,,,,,,,,, it didnt hold up. And now I am free.

  But I can understand the power it has on many that are still in,,, they choose to be blinded, maybe not even in a conscience way. For many it is such a comfort zone, and how many times while you were in did you hear......... but where eles would we go?????????? I am not sure were my road will take me,,,,,,,,, or were I will end up, I just hope I never fall into another cult. I still fear my weakness in that area, maybe in time I will come to terms with that. I think I have come along way in just a year.
• 

  Bang

  At another time in history, much of the known Christian world, so to speak, was Arian.

  If it went away, I sure can't see why the wtbts won't.

  Maybe it'll take a generation or two, though even one is a long time for them.

  Bang