re: Taking a balanced view of the allegations?

by Visionary Man 37 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  ItsJustlittleoldme

  Look only to Christ as a means of seeing God. Use the society as a means of obtaining the neccesary information to learn about Christ. Work with the society to further aid that process for others. Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies. People, think for yourselves!!! Make the truth *your own*.

  Hi Visionary man,

  I highlighted your last comments.. A few quesitons, if I may:

  1.) Does Jehovah work through Holy spirit?

  2.) The society clearly (as you even admit with their 'bible based' pedophile policy) has misinterpreted bible scripture before (Example: At one time, getting an organ transplant was cannibalism -- now it's not; another example - their bible based interpretation of Generation has recently changed) so how can you claim that the organization is needed in obtaining the 'neccesary information about Christ'? -- More over, if you think for yourself, is there anything else you disagree with on the organization? Do you agree with all their doctrines and policies? Some of them are wrong, you know.. After all, they do not have 'all the light'.. Can you give me just one doctrine that the organization has that they have stated there is no need for new light on? (I.E. Absolute truth about Christ)?

  3.) As stated in my point above, if you teach someone something, are you in essence taking the 'lead' and then become responsible for that person? (As they state the elders are responsible for the rest of the flock?).. Teaching elevates you to the position of a responsible person, and by bringing others into the flock elevates you to being responsible for them.

  4.) "Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies."

  A.) Do you mean OTHER humans besides the organization?

  B.) What is so special about the humans that run the organization? They have made mistakes, they are not perfect, so what differentiates them from the rest of the world?

  C.) Does the organization have any man-made policies themselves? Or do their policies originate with Jehovah?

  a.) If they originate from man, why are you following them (Pharisee)?

  b.) If they origianate from Jehovah, does that mean that Jehovah has directly told them these policies?

  1a.) If Jehovah has told them these policies directly, why have they needed to adjust them -- Did Jehovah NOT tell them an accurate policy?

  1b.) If Jehovah did not tell them directly, what is your proof that Jehovah did indeed send them to the organization?

  2b.) Once you show 'proof' of Jehovah's sending them the policies, answer questin 1a please.

  I CANNOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!!! THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  morrisamb

  You just proved why this forum is so important. You are a Witness. You've expressed yourself. Others read. Others respond. You're intelligent enough to spot a mudslinger a mile away (and they are here as they are in the Witnesses).

  I don't think one bad apple should necessarily spoil the whole bunch, but it does take a village to raise a child, as the saying goes. And I'm sure, you and I agree, we MUST protect the children.

  I was sexually abused by my Witness father for 3 years after the Elders found out (as were my siblings). Yes they "did the right thing" ...they disfellowshipped him! Or did they? As one reporter amazingly pointed out to me, "By excommunicating your father, they just isolated you children all the more." Because Witnesses wouldn't visit him/us because of the "Announcement" the truth is it was open season as far as abusing us kids. Kinda sad isn't it. One anonymous call to the police and we would have been out years earlier. Was that God's will?

  Or was it humans' interpretation of God's will? "We must protect the congregation?" Well, I guess they did that. Just not 4 children under the age of 15.

  (If you're interested in more on my story, check this thread under child abuse: The Aylmer Express, Canada reports...
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  Bodhisattva

  For all the times we were told not to run ahead, think for ourselves, or behave as our own personality dictates; for all the focus that was put on relying on the Society to reveal and act on what is right; it is amazing how when the shit hits the fan we are faulted for not being rugged individuals.
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  Visionary Man

  In reply to ItsJustlittleoldme I must just say that I kinda know I'm setting myself up here for a bashing but here we go.

  "1.) Does Jehovah work through Holy spirit?"

  Personally this is an issue which I believe again has a wooly answer from the society. However this isn't relavent to this post.

  "2.) The society clearly (as you even admit with their 'bible based' pedophile policy) has misinterpreted bible scripture before (Example: At one time, getting an organ transplant was cannibalism -- now it's not; another example - their bible based interpretation of Generation has recently changed) so how can you claim that the organization is needed in obtaining the 'neccesary information about Christ'? -- More over, if you think for yourself, is there anything else you disagree with on the organization? Do you agree with all their doctrines and policies? Some of them are wrong, you know.. After all, they do not have 'all the light'.. Can you give me just one doctrine that the organization has that they have stated there is no need for new light on? (I.E. Absolute truth about Christ)?"

  I've heard these issues slogged to death. No the witnesses don't have everything right. But then to insinuate that someone can't be wrong while they learn what is right is hyper-critical.

  "3.) As stated in my point above, if you teach someone something, are you in essence taking the 'lead' and then become responsible for that person? (As they state the elders are responsible for the rest of the flock?).. Teaching elevates you to the position of a responsible person, and by bringing others into the flock elevates you to being responsible for them."

  If a teacher educates an individual nuclear science, he can either use the knowledge to make a bomb or power millions of homes. The student's choices will always be their own.

  "4.) "Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies."

  A.) Do you mean OTHER humans besides the organization?"

  ANY Human.

  "B.) What is so special about the humans that run the organization? They have made mistakes, they are not perfect, so what differentiates them from the rest of the world?"

  Nothing potentialy. We should try to be different from the world though when "the world" is used in the context of opposition to God.

  " C.) Does the organization have any man-made policies themselves? Or do their policies originate with Jehovah?

  a.) If they originate from man, why are you following them (Pharisee)?

  b.) If they origianate from Jehovah, does that mean that Jehovah has directly told them these policies?

  1a.) If Jehovah has told them these policies directly, why have they needed to adjust them -- Did Jehovah NOT tell them an accurate policy?

  1b.) If Jehovah did not tell them directly, what is your proof that Jehovah did indeed send them to the organization?

  2b.) Once you show 'proof' of Jehovah's sending them the policies, answer questin 1a please."

  I certainly don't believe that the society is divinely inspired if that's what you mean. They aren't like the Kings of Israel, the Prophets or the Apostles.

  Hope these answers are frank enough.

  Visionary Man
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  Nanoprobe

  Visionary Man:

  I would like to respond to your comments from a slightly different perspective. Time has changed my mind, but only a little over a year ago I would have shared your analysis.

  Finding that a convicted pedophile would be returning to the congregation of his four-year-old victim changed my opinion. The elders had no problem with his choice even though many congregations met in the same hall. The little girl and her family had to stand by and watch as the congregation hugged and welcomed the pedophile and meeting after meeting warmly encouraged him to continue to attend.

  Never mind that the victim did not receive any support.

  We really thought there must be a MISTAKE; maybe the elders didnt know the situation. DNA, the childs testimony and his own confession, had convicted the pedophile but he recanted that confession to the elders and so they viewed him as innocent. Thats right he was innocent of the charges regardless of the findings of the court. They refused to read the court transcript of his confession.

  The body of elders must be making a MISTAKE, we concluded, so we talked to the CO, we wrote letters to the Service Dept, we talked to and wrote letters to each elder.

  No, there was NO MISTAKE, one elder was a personal friend of JR Brown, and the elders told us the matter was handled under the close direction of the Service Dept.

  You encourage:

  Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies. People, think for yourselves!!! Make the truth *your own*.

  We tried that approach and when we warned the young father that his friend was a pedophile, and that he should not be holding the fathers infant daughter what happened?

  We were counseled against causing divisions in the congregation.

  Never accept or lay down

  I agree but you will find you will encounter a stonewall of opposition to your protests. You will find that the elders who have been your personal friends for 18 years will not do the right or compassionate thing, if the SOCIETY tells them otherwise. Yes, not the individual elders this is a worldwide policy from the Society.

  And you will find that you can and will lose all the friends you spent 30 yrs making in one short day if you insist on protecting children rather than the societys image.

  Been there, Done that.
• 

  TR

  Visionary Man,

  Look only to Christ as a means of seeing God. Use the society as a means of obtaining the neccesary information to learn about Christ. Work with the society to further aid that process for others. Do not look to other humans as an exclusive means to this end and never accept or lay down on man made policies. People, think for yourselves!!! Make the truth *your own*.

  Wow. So many ironies in your post.

  We can't look to Christ, only the 144,000 can.

  Use the Society as a means to find necessary info to learn about Christ? HA!

  Do not look to humans? See above.

  People, think for yourselves!!! Make the truth your own. See above, then leave the WTS because they don't have truth.

  TR

  Edited by - TR on 17 July 2002 12:22:59
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  SYN

  Welcome to the board.

  Do you want to be a part of a religion that has policies that promote (albeit not actively, just passively) the molestation of children?

  Not to mention their flip-flopping blood and organ donation policy, which has been PROVEN to have cost lives?

  I wouldn't touch a religion that has a body of men vote on a life-critical blood policy with the lives of MY children. Would you? What is all that worshipful activity worth at the end of the day if it costs you your loved ones, children, and freedom of thought?

  You cannot question your superiours. That is simply not allowed.

  Have a good day.
• 

  sunshineToo

  ItsJustlittleoldme, what you said is so true.

  Nanoprobe, if there was a DNA test being done and the court found him guilty, why was that pedophile lingering around the KingdomHall?
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  Visionary Man

  Nanoprobe,

  Terrible situation and I certainly couldn't justify anything to anyone. If your post is true then it is a sorry circumstance which should have been prevented.

  As long as you do not blame God for this grave problem (and I'm sure you'll understand why I say that) then all I can say is that all will be put right in the New Order.

  Small consolation now I know, but don't underestimate it's power. Jehovah know's what's going on and will take action in the future. For now take the action you see fit.

  I'm curious though, if this peodaphile was convicted, why isn't he in Jail now?

  Visionary Man
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  Nanoprobe

  Sunshine;

  He was a teenager and did spend a year in a Juvenile facility and is currently a registered sex offender on probation.

  However, he was welcome in the hall of his victim. A year has passed now and the victim's family have moved on to another hall. Guess the pedophile and his supporters won that battle, my family no longer attends.