Neanderthals and the Bible?

by uncle_onion 52 Replies latest jw friends

  • JanH
    JanH
    So where are ethe psychological explanations? This is what I need to see before I can go any further.


    It's really nothing special. As I said, the sounds are gibberish. There are no documented cases of people actually speaking foreign languages.

    But if you really want to look into it, almost any introductory text in psychology of religion should do. The one I read was in Swedish, but I have been recommended David H. Wulff's Psychology of Religion : Classic and Contemporary.

    See http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471037060/qid=985198972/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_3/102-8393536-8240116

    I should assume most good libraries would have this, at least university libraries.

    - Jan

  • Tina
    Tina

    Hi Uo,
    Along with Jan's suggestion,you can find info on glossolalia in the realm of social psychology and psychliguistics...Tina

  • JanH
    JanH

    UO,

    so what about the "prophecies" in the Bible etc, etc etc?

    Yes, what about them?

    You'd be hard pressed to find any documented case where any prediction in the Bible came true, and we actually have evidence the "prophecy" indeed is older than the fulfillment. It's common for xtians to make claims about hundreds of prophecies that were fulfilled. However, such claims evaporate on closer examination.

    We do, however, find examples of unfulfilled ones. Tyre should cease to exist for ever. As you probably know, it's still a major city. And Egypt was never, as the Bible predicted, desolate.

    Where do you define what is inspired and what is not?

    I don't believe in inspiration.
    BTW the text says "all scripture is inspired".

    Well, both meanings can be squeezed out of the Greek text, and various translations differ. I do, however, stand by that "all scripture which is inspired" is the natural and probable reading of the Greek. I suspect most translators didn't think this was an important point.

    - Jan

  • rem
    rem

    Jelly,

    So as a creator how do you create a piece of writing that is concise, and will convey the message you want to both the primitive nomadic tribe that was the Jews as well as modern mankind. It seems to me a lot of people say the bible is wrong because it isn’t scientific enough in its description of creation, however if it were scientific it would make itself a dated writing. For example if it was written for mankind now all the previous generations would be unable to understand it, and what makes perfect scientific sense now will be dated in 40 years. I believe the creator choose his style of writing in order to make the genesis account timeless and applicable to all generations.

    How do you argue that writing the facts would have been too complicated for man to understand? God could have explained the factual process of evolution to early man at the time (whoever that was) in very simple terms. Did God not make humans smart enough to understand such concepts? Surely if he is the almighty creator, he could formulate an explanation that is both simple enough to understand and factual. You are theorizing that god basically made up a story, a lie, so humans wouldn't be asking pesky questions about where we came from. Tell me how an accurate account of the evolution of life would have become outdated? Facts do not become outdated. The creation account has become outdated!

    Everything falls into place once you realize that the writings of the bible are nothing more than myths and legends passed down by ancient, superstitious men. They are no more or less accurate or inspired than any other ancient writings - such as the Vedas, the Koran, the writings of Homer, or even the Book of Mormon (not so ancient). Otherwise, you get into the dangerous territory of calling god a liar and a deceiver. How do you think god feels when people keep falsely insisting that he wrote a silly, inaccurate book of fables in which he is made out to look like a monster? I know I'd be pretty upset if someone did that to me.

    To me, you paint a picture of an incompetent, deceitful god who doesn't trust his own creation with the truth. Would the truth about evolution ever come to light without science - if we were left only with the bible? Of course not, we would still think that the earth was the center of the universe. The bible is simply an outdated, ancient book of myths. This is easily seen by reading the book yourself - without logic-bending apologetic explanations for the many difficult passages. Also, with some research, it's easy to see that the Bible is not as "prophetic" as everyone makes it out to be. I don't see why people insist on defending the indefensible.

    Once the security blanket of the bible is shed, the world is easier to understand - without mind-bending explanations to keep the bible relevant. All of a sudden Neanderthals and prehistoric cave paintings and artifacts begin to make perfect sense.

    rem

  • Gianluca
    Gianluca

    Hi,

    Ask Fred Hall for a sample of his genes maybe he's the missing link between man and apes......

    Ciao
    Gianluca

  • jelly
    jelly

    JanH,
    You make several assumptions:
    (1) The events in genesis describing the origin of the universe, earth and life is not anywhere close to how science described it:
    a. The bible does not describe the origin of the universe it just says it had a beginning just like science
    b. The bible says that the earth was created after the heavens and again does not go in to detail just says it was created, just like science
    c. The appearance of life in the bible does not fit with what science has determined but it does show life evolving from simple forms to more complex ending with humans, just like science.
    (2) You assume that the intent of the writer of genesis was to create a literal rendering of how creation occurred, so do the other religious people that you quote in your post.
    a. There is no limit on the ages in genesis the Hebrew word for day can mean age and it has no limit, so what most religious people felt the time frame was is not relevant.
    b. I would like to see someone write a better paper describing creation to a group of people that had the same level of education as the nomadic Hebrews and the writing should include the following:
    i. Creation of universe
    ii. Creation of earth
    iii. Life beginning simply
    iv. Life progressing to more complex form (evolution)
    v. It must be very concise and cogent
    (3) In conclusion they only way to attack the creation account is to make the assumption that you know the intent of the writer of genesis, I feel his intent was not to create a science book but just to relay some basic facts. Also to say that the genesis account is not anywhere close to creation is simply a matter of opinion, I see a writing that is 4000 plus years old that realized that the universe had a creation, that life evolved slowly starting with simple forms and leading to complex and ending with man. NO OTHER PRIMITIVE CREATION ACCOUNT COMES CLOSE, and to state that the genesis account is with out value is to ignore the internal evidence in the document.
    Jelly

  • jelly
    jelly

    Rem,

    So you feel God is deceitful because he spoke to man in a language that man could understand. To me a myth can be truthful if it describes some aspect of life of conveys a message that is important. By your standard Jesus would have been a lair because he told the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. The parallel I am trying to draw between Jesus and the writer of genesis is that the writer of genesis used many (myths, parables pick which ever word here you want) to convey truth just like Jesus did.

    God in the genesis account was a god that gave people a great deal of freedom, when he commanded Adam to subdue the earth he gave no instructions just said to do it so Adam would have the freedom to do what he felt was best. Could God have told Adam exactly how to subdue the earth in the most efficient manner, yes but, God did not because he wanted mankind to grow (mentally, and socially). Could god have delivered a 30 bound volume set to Moses describing the exact steps in the creation process and at the same time delivering a 60+ volume set to explain the math, physics and chemistry necessary to understand the first volumes probably but does this make sense to you.

    One of the most important questions people have to ask themselves is what was the point of genesis, was it to deliver the exact set steps used in creation, of just to deliver to mankind the truth that they were created, etc, etc (see my other post). To say that the genesis account makes god out to be a liar assumes intent, you assume that the writer intended to create a science book and not a book on morals.

    By the way I don’t bend logic, and Neanderthals and cave paintings make perfect sense to me. I am logical enough to realize that there is truth in parables (yes stories just like the ones Jesus told to convey a point); I am logical enough to realize that most people’s attacks on genesis come from assumptions that they make.

    Jelly

  • rem
    rem

    Jelly,

    It seems that you are the one reading things into the Genesis creation story, not me or JanH. You are trying to bend the story to fit modern science. Your claim that the truth would be too complicated is just special pleading - and you even admit that god handed down an inaccurate story. He could have at least aligned the story more closely to the facts. The fact is that the Genesis creation myth is nothing but a copy of other more ancient creation myths. I have in my possession many of such myths in my library.

    You are forgetting that I'm not the one imputing motives on god - you are. I believe the myths were just stories told by men to explain the world we live in - stories that were not inspired. You are the one trying to have your cake and eat it too - claiming that the bible is inspired by god, even though it's not accurate. By this claim, you are the one showing that god cannot be trusted to tell humans the whole truth.

    Again - I'm not saying that god had to explain every single step in creation/evolution, but surely he could have provided an overview that was both brief and FACTUALLY CORRECT. Contrary to your assertion, this would not take a 30 bound volume set to explain. Brief synopsis's of evolution are routinely provided in scientific textbooks. Are humans capable of this, but god is not?

    Once you take godly inspiration out of the picture, convoluted explanations need not be used to make the bible relevant in our day. The stories and myths can be accepted for what they are - stories written by ancient, superstitious men.

    rem

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    uncle: very thorough research it took me back to bio class, thank you.

    Allow me add my 2 cents to this mix: an issue has arisen as to whether or not or not the Genesis account is factual, literal, or metaphoric.

    To all the fundies present: if you chose one of these 3 interpretations,
    1. why not stay consistent throughout the entire book, meaning the bible,
    2. why are some stories literal and others metaphoric and yet others factual, this reasoning always and still drives me up the wall.

    I mean come on, i understand most of us were brain washed pretty thoroughly (including myself), but have we lost all of our logical reasoning power along the way back to recovery? it seems very convenient to change the perspective, as the story arises, in order to back up the christian faith.

  • dark clouds
    dark clouds

    ps. i forgot this on my last post

    1 creation day = 7,000 years
    thus 6 * 7,000 = 42,000 total creation time

    wherever did this justification begin?

    Cheers

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