Amish - JWs similiar problems

by larc 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  qwerty

  Larc,

  Thanks for the Link. I started reading and now I find I can't stop :) . It's a pity Ray Franz couldn't put the full text of is books on the Web. But there again I don't begrudge him of any recompence his books (if any!)have bought him.

  qwerty
• 

  JAVA

  SFJim,

  . . . Amish boys on roller blades racing a horse & buggy while the buggy's lone passenger yacked away on his cell phone.

  That is priceless! I was in Homes County, Ohio last summer, which has a large Amish community. I remember seeing a couple of Amish boys hanging around a public phone booth, looking very sheepish because I saw them. I made a comment to my spouse about the paradox they must feel of living in the 19th Century with the 21st Century all around them. It looks like the kids you saw were dealing with that problem very well. That was a great story!

  larc,

  I'm still reading the on-line book. I can't get over the Amish bed dating practice when kids turn 16. I'm sure it's a system to keep young folks in the community, and insure they didn't date outsiders. Why spend money on a movie and meal when you can slide into bed with someone for the night? It's a setup that encourages sexual freedom, but only in their community. It's also a setup that could encourage sexual abuse.

  --JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

  Edited by - JAVA on 21 March 2001 19:32:57
• 

  larc

  Recently, JT posted a cite to read about the Amish. I have responded here to bring this earlier discussion back to the forefront for others to read, so that you will have further detail and then perhaps may want to read this.
• 

  COMF
• 

  JAVA

  Found this artice in today's paper about an Amish group in Pennsylvania:

  [From the Dayton Daily News: 04.09.2001]
  Religious belief runs up against traffic law

  Amish say colorful reflectors on buggies violate their belief

  Associated Press

  NICKTOWN, Pa. | Roads winding around rolling hills cut picturesque paths through this western Pennsylvania hamlet.

  But those curves make it difficult for drivers to spot slow-moving Amish buggies — especially at night, when the all-black, horse-drawn vehicles can fade into the darkness.

  ‘‘I have had some close calls, and it’s really scary,’’ said resident Bonnie DeFazio. ‘‘At night, you can see something there, but you can’t always tell what it is.’’

  There have been no deaths or serious injuries, but the threat has sparked a showdown with the small, conservative Swartzentruber Amish community.

  Swartzentrubers came to western Pennsylvania in 1997 from eastern Ohio. There are now about a dozen families in the area some 65 miles east of Pittsburgh.

  Its members refuse to use the standard warning symbol of a bright orange triangle that state law requires on slow-moving vehicles, saying the colorful reflectors violate their belief in plain personal belongings. Instead, they outline the back edges of their buggies with gray reflective tape.

  Although most other Amish groups in Pennsylvania use the orange reflectors, the Swartzentrubers have received the backing of the American Civil Liberties Union. And state Sen. John D. Wozniak, who represents the area including Nicktown, said last week that he would introduce a bill that would allow the Swartzentrubers to use their reflective tape.

  Donna Doblick, a Pittsburgh attorney representing the Swartzentrubers, said four states — including Ohio — permit reflective tape outlining the back of a buggy as a substitute for the orange triangle. Doblick’s firm and the ACLU are working with Wozniak to draw up similar legislation for Pennsylvania.

  In December, Jonas Swartzentruber spent three days in jail after being cited for not having a triangle on his buggy. Since then, 10 other members of the sect have been cited, and all say they would rather go to jail than pay the $100 fine or perform community service.

  ‘‘Doing community service would probably require us to ride in a truck or work with electrical tools,’’ said Levi Zook, one of those who have been cited. ‘‘We don’t want to go to jail, but that is what we will do.’’

  Pennsylvania law requires all slow-moving vehicles, including Amish buggies and farm equipment, to display the familiar triangle reflectors as a warning to drivers coming from behind.

  ‘‘Slow-moving vehicles are at risk when they travel on the roads in Pennsylvania,’’ said Jack Lewis, a State Police spokesman. ‘‘The reflective emblem law is designed to promote safety. We are enforcing that law.’’

  Lewis said there have been a few crashes involving Swartzentruber Amish buggies, and State Police began enforcing the reflector law after other residents complained.

  The Swartzentrubers are among several conservative Amish orders in Pennsylvania and elsewhere that object to the reflectors — both because of the bright colors and the idea that they should wear a symbol for their protection.

  ‘‘They’ve cited to me scriptural passages about the perils of putting your faith in a man-made symbol instead of putting your faith in God,’’ Doblick said. ‘‘You have to remember these people read the Bible very literally and find that aspect — the symbol, the triangle — very problematic.’’

  One safety researcher argues against an exemption.

  ‘‘That triangle is there for communicating, ’Hey — I’m moving slowly,’’’ said Tom Schnell, director of the Operator Performance Laboratory at the University of Iowa. ‘‘When you see not just a triangle, but an orange triangle, you know there’s a slow-moving vehicle ahead.’’

  But in a similar case in Wisconsin, state Supreme Court justices in 1996 upheld the right of conservative Amish to use white reflective tape instead of the required orange triangle. Courts in Minnesota and Michigan also have sided with the Amish.

  ‘‘If we can find something that’s equally effective, why not let them use it?’’ Wozniak said.

  --JAVA

  ...counting time at the Coffee Shop
• 

  JAVA

  COMF,

  Really enjoyed the cartoon--thanks! After reading David Yoder's description of the Amish culture, it's about the only thing I've chuckled about with this sect.

  --JAVA

  ...counting time at the Coffee Shop
• 

  GinnyTosken

  This thread reminded me of a book I stumbled upon at Goodwill. It's called Extraordinary Groups: An Examination of Unconventional Lifestyles by William M. Kephart and William W. Zellner. It examines the lifestyles of:

  The Old Order Amish
  The Oneida Community
  The Gypsies
  Church of Christ, Scientist
  The Hasidim (a convervative Jewish sect)
  The Father Divine Movement
  The Mormons
  The Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I found the comparisons and contrasts fascinating. Some of the beliefs of other groups have every bit as much scriptural support as some of the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I was also fascinated by what modern innovations are allowed by the Amish and which are forbidden. BTW, rollerblades and public phone booths are allowed, Java:

  Amish homes in the Lancaster area, furthermore, though surprisingly modern in certain respects, are without electricity. There are no light bulbs, illumination being provided by oil lamps or gas-pressured lanterns. And the list of prohibitions remains long: dishwashers, clothes dryers [clothes washers are allowed as long as they are not powered by electricity], microwaves, blenders, freezers, central heating, vacuum cleaners, air conditioning, power mowers, bicycles, toasters, hair dryers, radios, television--all are taboo.

  Which parts of modernity will be accepted by the Amish and which will not is difficult to ascertain. When they do change, the change is usually well thought out, with the community assisting the bishop in the decision-making process. Recently, many devout Amish have become avid rollerbladers--a shock to most outsiders.

  Sam Stoltzfus, an Amish historian, says, "In-line skates are permissable . . . because they are seen as a newer version of roller skates, a cousin of the ice skate and an improvement over the leg-powered scooter--all long used by the Amish."

  The discussion of Jehovah's Witnesses is also an interesting one. William Zellner went undercover to study them for his Ph.D. dissertation in sociology. He started with a Bible study, went to meetings, and eventually went door-to-door as an observer. Here is a sample of what he had to say:

  Bonding is more important than dogma. The differences between Witness dogma and conventional Christian dogma are not emphasized in the proselytizing process. What is emphasized are the similarities. Zellner made the following observations concerning his home Bible study program:

  "It was several months before my instructor revealed that Christ was not God incarnate, long after an affective social bond, under ordinary circumstances, would have been formed. It would have been very difficult to break a strong interactive bond based on that one bit of information. The dogma comes in bits and pieces.

  I was never lied to, but when I did not initiate the 'hard' questions associated with doctrinal differences between the Witnesses and normative Protestant denominations, the differences were not revealed until my instructor thought I was ready for the 'truth.'"

  This book is written without rancor and is helpful in understanding these unconventional groups.

  Ginny
• 

  MacHislopp

  Hello everybody,

  thanks to you all for the posts, and ...not to forget the links to the Amish on-line publication.
  By all the comments so far it sounds ...worthy to spend some time
  reading it.

  Agape to you all J.C.MacHislopp

  PS. Ozziepost and GynnyTosken...interesting!
• 

  larc

  Folks,

  I brought this back up for the new people. If you have the time to read this book you will be enriched, I think. What prompted me to resurrect this thread was Teejay's comment that us "pip squeaks" can't do much. I wanted him and others to see what one pip squeak was able to accomplish.

  In the final chapters of the book, you will see the strategy and the use of the system that David Yoder made to see justice. This is a heart rending story, and an example of the good that one man can accomplish.
• 

  Stephanus

  A lady on a bus sees a bearded man dressed in a black suit and hat and goes up to him saying "Jews like you!"
  The man says, "I beg your pardon?"
  She repeats "Jews like you! You doggedly stick to archaic modes of dress and behaviour and try to force it on more moderate Jews and give a bad reputation in the community to those of us Jews who try to be more liberal!"
  The man says,"I'm sorry Madam, but I'm Amish"
  The lady smiles and says "How nice to see you're upholding the old traditions!"