Why do WOMEN remain Believers???

by JT 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Mum

  JT, thank you for this timely topic. I have just finished reading "From Housewife to Heretic" by Sonia Johnson. Sonia Johnson was a third-generation Mormon woman who campaigned hard for the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment to the US Constitution in the late 1970's and early 1980's. She was excommunicated from her church for failing to "show respect for the priesthood." The priesthood is all male, of course.

  Sonia had been brought up to believe that motherhood (very important in Mormonism) and priesthood were equal, but she noticed that mothers were excluded from a lot of privileges of priesthood. She still remained a believing Mormon and felt that the Mormon Church had made her the fighting feminist that she was (obviously, her experience was not typical of Mormon women).

  She was invited to appear on "The Phil Donahue Show" after her excommunication. There was also supposed to be someone to represent the other side. Sonia gave the Donahue people some names of church leaders to be on the show with her. The men refused, and wanted to send a woman. Sonia refused to be on the show with another woman, saying that she was in a struggle of men against women, not women against women. She stated that she had no issues with the women in her church who had a different point of view because they were, after all, doing what the men told them to do, which they believed to be right; her issues were with the men, from the very top down. What a brave woman! Of course, none of the men, bullies/cowards that they were, would appear with her, so she did the show alone.

  When I was growing up in the 1950's, I internalized feelings of inferiority, incompetency, and saw myself, as Sonia so aptly says, as a "role" not as a person. After leaving the borg, I started to find the person inside me and to leave behind the person I was led to believe I "should" be. I can't tell you how great it has been!

  Freedom has a high price, but it is worth every bit.
• 

  teenyuck

  Hi JT...great thread.

  I, too, am mystified by women and religion. I look at my mom, who is a fighter....she turns into a mouse around the brothers. It is as Lauralisa noted...I think she is afraid she will fry at armageddon.

  I also think my mom likes not having any responsibility in the congregation. She can always say she went in service, however, she can miss meetings and not have to worry about the microphones falling into the wrong hands. ; )

  I also think that the longer you hear something (you are weaker, dumber, not worth as much) you begin to believe it. No matter how you were raised, if you allow yourself to get into an organization like the dubs, or Islam, you are setting yourself up to be knocked down. Once in, it is always harder to leave.

  Next thing you know, you are in a never ending cycle.

  As lauralisa said:

  Until a woman is forced to come to her senses (usually due to irrational events that hurt enough to piss her royally enough off) and realize that these mouth-pieces of god are power-abusing freaks, she does not feel the need to question the way things are.

  I sent my mother CoC and she has read some of it...she saw Dateline, I hooked her up with Panorama. Yes, she agrees they are power hungry, power abusing scumbags. "But they have the truth." She is staying for now. It is easier.

  Jan noted that abused women stay in relationships that are deadly. This is similar. You are told it (ugly, stupid, fat, etc.) and you start to believe it. Very hard to "just leave."

  Most of the men on this board are much more open to female's being equal. That comes from opening up your minds. By leaving the dubs, you opened up your minds.
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  William Penwell

  I could never understand this also. Just because they are not the same physically they are made second class citizen's. I feel we have inherited this from out primitive ancestors for the cause of propagating the human species. Keeping the strongest lineage going and that is why the male was taught to dominating women. It was then over thousands of years adapted into our religious belief systems and that is where the bible writers borrowed it from those earlier traditions.

  Will
• 

  zenpunk

  I hate to disagree with you Will but I'm going to.

  Indiginous people are said to have their own "bounded field" faith structure, usually refered to as core shamanism. Men and women are treated equally in the pure ancient ways of native beliefs.

  However, the "Revealed Universal" faith structure, which is where, in basic terms, someone has a revelation that must be spread to all people, beliefs and dogma are used to supress the existing "bounded field" beliefs of the natives. It is out of the "Revealed Universal" concept that inequality of the sexes comes. Rules upon Rules....

  Look at the WTS, for such a supposedly simple religion, there are endless rules.
• 

  JanH

  zenpunk,

  Indiginous people are said to have their own "bounded field" faith structure, usually refered to as core shamanism. Men and women are treated equally in the pure ancient ways of native beliefs.

  How many of those people have you visited? How many actual anthropological studies have you read about gender roles in "primitive" societies?

  Sorry, it's a nice dream but it is not true. Perhaps it is true about a few of them, but none that I have actually heard about. It is hard to generalize. But on the whole, primitive communities are not a feminist paradise. Most "primitive" males have gender views that makes Fred Franz look like a feminist.

  The popular stories about the ancient goddess-religions predating the partiarch religions lack all foundation in fact. It was a mystical feminist fantasy. All evidence suggests that almost universal oppression of women has been with us since the origin of humaity.

  - Jan
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  William Penwell

  You are correct on your point but I ask When did this all start?? I understand there was civilization in the early pre biblical times that treated both sexes equally. The bible that was written 4 to 5 thousand years ago was already propagating the male dominance of the human species.

  Will
• 

  JanH

  Will,

  I understand there was civilization in the early pre biblical times that treated both sexes equally.

  This is part of the mythos of some feminist new age religions, though. Cute, but it is not supported by actual evidence. It has been widely published, of course, so many people believe in these stories.

  - Jan
• 

  William Penwell

  So do you think some of my points are valid? Is this a left over from our primeval ancestors religious belief system?

  Will
• 

  termite 35

  The submissivness and treatment of women in the bible and the congregations was one of the reasons I would'nt get baptised.

  I remember a sister once telling me, in answer to my question of why women wer'nt allowed to give talks etc

  'Can you imagine a sister trying to hold a position of authority or give a talk when she has PMS?'

  It left me feeling as though all the women who had ever suffered for others had gone unnoticed by so many of their own sex.

  They seemed to forget that due to women REFUSING to be submissive; they gained their right to choice.

  Women like Betty Friedan,Ida Bell Wells-Barnet,Elizabeth Blackwell,The Grimke sisters, George Elliott and the incredible' Get it right.I'm not a humanitarian.I'm a hell-raiser' Mary Harris;gave all women the hope to dare to be treated equally.Society moves forward because of women like these.And society is all the richer because of many others.

  The bibles' views are not consistant with equality of the sexes- although you could argue that the 'law of love' could technically overrule all the previous mistreatment and permit equality in principle.

  The jury's still out for me-id like to have somekind of faith left- but it's getting harder each day.
• 

  ballistic

  I was chatting with ISP and Simon at the BBQ about a course I had to go on at work. It was about being diverse and learning to respect and understand people of other nationalities, sexes, religions, sexual orientations and of various physical abilities.

  I must admit, the first reason I brought the subject up was how hard to swallow I found the gay and lesbian issues, however even these were quite thought provoking.

  Secondly the reason was that there seems to be a small concensus that in the process of leaving the org, our standards drop. In fact, this is not true and in some areas completely the opposite happens. OK - so you may remember threads about the ex-jw girl porn star or people like me who took up smoking and so on, but there are a good many reasons for people leaving the JWs to raise their conduct and attitudes. A good example is the subject of this thread; attitudes to women.

  This is one of now many areas where people here excel over the dubs, and the dubs are being left in the dark ages.