Small details...

by Garrett 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I've heard doubters called nitpickers. Apparently as long as you call God by the name Jehovah, don't believe in hell, believe the number going to heaven is limited, believe in personally preaching in some form and the soul isn't separate and isn't eternal - nothing else matters.

    If the GB touches any of those issues it would be a catastrophy for them. (with the exception of maybe the 144k being literal; I could see them saying it's a small number in comparison to the great crowd but probably not literal).

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Oh, I dunno, Listener.

    Someone here once suggested that they could reintroduce the Trinity concept, call it something else, and the loyalist R&F would happily accept it.

    It was said in semi-jest, but frankly, I had a hard time arguing with it.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    garrett - "One last thing I finally realized is that the majority of witnesses DO NOT want to wake up."

    Loyalists do not want to wake up.

    Whether or not they're the majority, I don't know.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Reminds me of an old joke (forget who told it)....

    (Holding up an axe) "This is the very same axe that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree."

    (Pause)

    "I had to replace the handle"

    (Pause)

    "And the head."

    (Pause)

    "But it occupies the same space".

    JW doctrine is nearly fully different than what it was 100 or even 50 years ago. "But it occupies the same space".

  • Simon
    Simon

    LOL, Reminds me of Triggers Broom on Only Fools and Horses.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE

    Sat next to him at a concert once in Manchester (I think it was Michelle Shocked)

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    One last thing I finally realized is that the majority of witnesses DO NOT want to wake up. I no longer feel like the brainwashing is all that's keeping them in. I think that deep down, they understand what were telling them and they know that what we're saying is truth, but they don't want to face that reality. For them, living in their world, they are doing something that they believe has purpose. Taking that away from them is devastating and the majority is not mentally capable of allowing their mind to accept the facts that we provide them with.

    That is a fact your never going to convince some people of..

    They think the WBT$ is circling the drain..

    The WBT$ has a long,Prosperous,Unhealthy Life ahead of it..

    A Lot of JWs are Happy right where they are..

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Maybe a better question is...

    ..."With all these hurdles and crises the Org is dealing with at the moment, how is it going to continue surviving?"

  • jws
    jws

    The bike may be a better analogy. With a car, you usually can't replace it with something different unless you replace everything. You replace one piece with an identical new one. In the end, it's still a car. It's core purpose is the same and looking at it, you may not know anything changed.

    The bike example is better, but the JW would have the same argument. The core purpose is the same. You get on, you pedal, you go places. At least the bike looked different.

    All of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures are online at nsbible.org. Look and see what's all changed. Read a chapter or two and see if it sound like today's JWs.

  • RedPillPopper
    RedPillPopper

    Here's my reasoning on the "core doctrines"...........

    This list and table come from jwfacts. These are current groups that share the 'core doctrines' with JW's

    Bible Students

    Christadelphians

    Mormons

    Seventh-day Adventists

    Two By Twos

    Worldwide Church of God

    The following table shows that the key doctrines of Trinity, Soul, Salvation, Time Prophecies and Morals are almost the same for these four groups that started at a similar time borrowing similar ideas from similar people, so JW's are not unique in this aspect.


    Mormon

    Jehovah's Witnesses

    Seventh-day Adventist

    Christadelphians

    Origin

    1800's America

    1800's America

    1800's America

    1800's America

    Founder

    Joseph Smith

    Charles Russell

    Ellen White

    Dr Thomas

    Trinity

    No

    No

    Yes, though some groups reject the Trinity

    No

    Narrow Salvation

    Only one true religion

    Only one true religion

    Only one true religion

    Only one true religion

    Salvation Requirements

    Faith, repentance, baptism, continued righteousness

    Faith, repentance, baptism, continued righteousness

    Faith, repentance, baptism, continued righteousness

    Faith, repentance, baptism, continued righteousness

    Armageddon

    Not the end of this earth

    Not the end of this earth

    Not the end of this earth

    Not the end of this earth

    Armageddon

    Destruction of most of mankind

    Destruction of most of mankind

    Destruction of most of mankind

    Destruction of most of mankind

    Time Prophecies

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Sabbath

    Yes

    No

    Yes

    No

    Soul Mortal

    No

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Go to war

    Yes

    No

    No

    No

    Promote Love and Strong Community

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Shun

    Yes

    Yes

    No

    Yes

    Strict Moral Code

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    Under the premise that Jah speaks only thru the Org, let's look at what Joshua said on the threshold of the Promised Land:

    (Joshua 21:43-45) . . .So Jehovah gave Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their forefathers, and they proceeded to take possession of it and to dwell in it. 44 Furthermore, Jehovah gave them rest all around, according to everything that he had sworn to their forefathers, and not one of all their enemies stood before them. All their enemies Jehovah gave into their hand. 45 Not a promise failed out of all the good promise that Jehovah had made to the house of Israel; it all came true.

    It all came true because it was Jehovah who said it. In Deut chap 18 Jehovah tells us the difference when he says something and when men make things up.

    (Deuteronomy 18:20-22) . . .“‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’


    The "core truths" of soul, trinity, hellfire, etc. cannot be proven or disproven until we die. At that time and that time alone will we know if they are true or not. Outside of those core truths, EVERYTHING the WT has told us has had to have 'new light'. NOTHING that makes them unique as JW's has ever stayed true. NOTHING!! Tell them to make a list of everything that makes them unique as JW's that has ever stayed true without change or New Light.

    2+2=4 is a simple truth. It is true right now, it was true 2,000 years ago and it will still be true 2,000 years into the future. If something is said to be true it will NEVER become false at a later date. However the Org tells us Jah reveals truth thru them "progressively".

    Let's learn math in a progressive fashion:

    2+2=4 (simple math)

    200+200=400 (progressively harder math)

    1348 divided by 248 = 5.35 (progressively even harder math)

    The simple logic is that even though the math becomes progressively harder and advanced, all the previous answers are still true. The idea that "progressive" can mean that a 'truth' can become false at a later time and its only an "adjustment" is WT fabricated logic. It is another Logical Fallacy. The ONLY reason for "New Light" is because WT keeps painting itself into a corner with made up doctrines and has to lie to get its way out. And with the constant logical fallacies in every article/talk JW's are kept too stupid to realize it.

    If you keep hitting them with the fact that if Jah says something it will always come true. They have to agree with that and the Cognitive Dissonance will have a party in their heads.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Garrett's friend: those are small details, the core of our beliefs hasn't changed

    Not to diss your friend overmuch, but that is completely NOT true.

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