Is the Bible Really the Word of God?

by gumby 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • Francois
    Francois

    GSX, right on the money my friend, right on the money.

    The stories about Jesus were written decades after his death by old men who didn't understand The Man when He was standing right there in front of them. And Paul wrote his misogynist, organizing remarks having never met The Man and thus never appreciating His subtleties at all.

    I think the OT should be shit-canned. In its entirety. Today Now.

    I think the NT should be shit-canned. Today. Now. With the following exception:

    [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    [38] This is the first and great commandment.
    [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    And all people everywhere should reverence these two commandments no matter from what culture they hail. And then we would stand a chance of having peace on earth and an end to violence and hatred and war. After all, we are dealing with human beings and we should keep it as simple as possible.

    My $1.98.

    Francois

  • gumby
    gumby

    Thanks for the comments.... but what about the questions I posed?

    I would like some more input on the questions asked.

  • StinkyPantz
    StinkyPantz

    I'll answer your question " Topic: Is the Bible Really the Word of God?"

    No

  • Salud
    Salud

    Francois,

    I agree with you totally on the words of Jesus. I think Just2laws would also agree.

    Over the last few months I also have been studying not only the Bible but other sources regarding the Bible and it has ressurrected many of my suspicions and doubts I used to have even as a JW. For example, why is it that the God of the Hebrew scriptures is so horrible to deal with and the God of the Greek scriptures is so different that they don't even relate whatsoever? It is almost like there was a God for the Jews and a seperate one for the Christians. The loving God that Jesus prayed to is so different than the hateful one of the Jews.

    After being lied to and decieved and basing my entire life on teachings of an organization I am more skeptical as to what I believe. I feel more free to explore other ideas and beleifs and a need to prove to myself what the truth is, including the truth about christianity. I feel more people should also when they are ready.

    I don't condemn anybody for believing in the Bible or any other belief system as long as it does not harm people. It is a personal decision that one has to make and bare responsiblity for.

  • gumby
    gumby

    We would have to assume that either all the men who wrote in Jesus time or else those who later....added to their writings.....all lied. They ALL fabricated who Jesus was. What would be the chances of that?

    I have all the reasons to doubt as the rest here. I only wanted a logical answer to the questions asked......

  • Francois
    Francois

    The four gospels tell four different stories. They do not comport with each other in any sense of the word "congruent." If these four gospels with their slightly different stories are the Word of God, then God isn't terribly consistent, is he?

    frank

    P.S. - Once you post a thread, it has a life of its own and it will go where it will. Believe me when I say that neither you nor I nor anyone else is ever regarded the owner of a thread, or the daddy of a thread in that they can dictate where it will go. Post your questions and enjoy the ride. That's my philosophy.

    FT

    Edited by - francois on 9 August 2002 19:6:31

  • Incense_and_Peppermints
    Incense_and_Peppermints

    you are so right, francois... and very wise

  • gsx1138
    gsx1138

    I think your questions have been answered Gumby they just aren't the answers you wanted. I'll try to break it down into specifics but some of the questions border on circular logic. By the way, JanH is a thousand times better at this type of debate than I am.

    1. Jesus WAS a historical figure as writers other than christians testify. Wether he DID THE THINGS the bible said he did, OR WAS who the bible said he was.......is the debate.

    Not a question but it is a debate.

    2.The 4 Gospels all harmonize even though written by different writers

    The Gospels don't actually harmonize, Francois made this point as well. In fact most of the Bible doesn't harmonize.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

    3. The jewish TALMUD, though clashing with the gospels in that they argue in the Means by which Jesus performed miracles, do not DENY they happened.

    This is like me writing a book on how the world is flat. Then someone else who also agrees the world is flat writes a book about the same thing but disagrees on where the water goes. I can use his book to prove my point and he can use mine to prove his so one of them must be true.

    4. Celsus, a philosopher of the second century C.E., denied Jesus as divine in that his ORIGIN was of humble begginings....poor, humble, betrayed, suferred, being put to death. The argument is he believed Jesus existed.....but he used his personal opinion on how he VIEWED him.

    As already stated, and I don't have the link anymore, Jesus was not Deified until a few hundred years after he was dead. I can believe that Einstein existed but that doesn't mean that he preformed miracles or was the son of God.

    5.Unlike mythical writings, the bible is built on people who REALLY existed, and PLACES that exist to this day.

    The Bible is built on Mythical writings. It has already been proven that allot of stories in the Bible are based on Pagan mythology. The easiest example is the story of Noah and the Flood. This is a blatant rip off an earlier Babylonian mythology of the Goddess and the God warned a man about an upcoming flood, his name? Yep, Noah. Even today movies are made with real events as the backdrop and the author takes liberties with the rest. Yes, even back in the day there was artistic liscense. Also, the best way to make a lie believable is to include 80% truth.

    6. Luke 3:1,2 names 7 political and religious officials who actually lived in the time Jesus lived. "This can be verified by consulting history books" say's the article on P.67 (thought that was interesting!)

    See the last part of the above comment.

    7. The writers freely admited their waeknesses. Would writers who are fabricating stories, speak so humbly?

    J.R.R Tolken was a humble man as well. Does this mean that the Hobbit is true?

    8. Last...the book also mentioed the THEME of the bible running throughout it's pages and say's in affect...."What are the chances of one theme weaving itself throughout the bible over that many years.

    See the link above for Biblical consitencies. The stories of the Bible come from the same region and were originally verbal stories. You can take three seperate books/ideologies from China. Confusionism, Taoism, and Buddhism all share a common theme and spawned at different times in different regions of China.

    I hope that is a little more of what you're looking for. However, I must say it has been awhile since I've had this debate so I'm a bit rusty.

  • SpiderMonkey
    SpiderMonkey
    the book also mentioed the THEME of the bible running throughout it's pages and say's in affect...."What are the chances of one theme weaving itself throughout the bible over that many years.

    I also am rusty on the specifics of this debate, but on this point, #8: Who decided which books comprise the Bible? There is a certain "accepted" range of about 66 books (give or take, depending on your religion), but couldn't there just as easily be only 6? Or 666 for that matter? Who chose which books are "really" Bible books and which aren't? I don't think the usually agreed-upon Bible harmonizes 100% in the first place, but even if it did, how hard would it really be to pick and choose 66 writings over the course of 1000's of years that *seem* to prove a universal theme?

  • SpiderMonkey
    SpiderMonkey
    We would have to assume that either all the men who wrote in Jesus time or else those who later....added to their writings.....all lied. They ALL fabricated who Jesus was. What would be the chances of that?

    The chances that they all thought they were lying, and yet lied anyway, are basically nil. Yet, how many people in America invoke the memory of "the founding fathers" to support their own political agenda? They may fully believe in their politics, and yet know little of the politics of the founding fathers, not to mention their experiences, background, and so on. And still use one quote or story from such an historical person to support their own agenda. I believe this is what happened, with a vengeance, in the case of the memory of Jesus. It seems indisputable to me that he was a real person, and indeed a wise and influential one at that. But it also seems to me that no one who wrote about him was one tenth as wise or inflential, and that they all wanted to have some share of the glory he achieved by not seeking glory. I don't know of any historical proof that any of these writers gave an unbiased account of who or what Jesus was, or even what he taught. There are some similarities in their accounts, but there is also blatant evidence of infighting and politics. Even while Jesus was alive, the apostles supposedly argued about which was the greatest. And these are the men that we are supposed to trust to tell us The Truth?

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