by Dia 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
...the meaning of Jehovah would be "he who will be, is, and has been". But such a word-formation has no analogy in the Hebrew language.
Anybody know what the meaning of Yahweh would be?
Also, does such a word formation have an analogy in the Hebrew language?
I just want to speculate (based on the above document) that should the name actually mean "coming one", does it then directly refer to Jesus?
Edited by - LittleToe on 20 August 2002 18:18:38
Just a complete aside...
Dia:
Are you aware that your nik is the Scot's Gaelic word for God, pronouonced "jee ah"?
bchamber,
On the Septuigent and all that. None of this matters much since the Gospels do not always quote our Lord's words exactly. They wrote to their audience and often changed words and phrases which is easily shown. It was the message that mattered the truth of what He said and nearly all Christian Jews, even the apostles still believed in the Law and customs of the Jews. They follwed the same suprstitions and used phrases like "kingdom of the heavens" to substitute for "kingdom of God. This pretty much kills most arguments that they used the sacred name. It still conveys the truth but shows they did not use the sacred name. They did this for at least 14 years after the resurrection and most longer. It all boils down to speculation once again. Really all one knows for sure is there is no positive evidence upon which we can draw to make this leap that the name appeared in the NT texts.
Joseph
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Joseph
My whole point was to demostrate that it was not the jews who removed the name of God from the Septuigent but the early Christians from around 350 C.E. or later. They seem to be the ones to stop using God's name altogether in their writings, not the Jews. That was the reason for the references.
Now, if Matthew did indeed write to the Jews in their own language, he would certainly have used God's name as it was in the Septuigent.
Now as to how to pronounce God's name as SS seems to think I was trying to address, maybe the following will help him.
I am NOT a JW. However, even though the name "Jehovah" was an invented name by a 13th century monk, I believe just as Professor Pfeiffer stated in his book.
O.T. Scholar Robert H. Pfeiffer, in his book Introduction to the Old Testament, 1948, stated on page 94: "Accordingly, the consonants of the kethib, YHWH, were vocalized YeHoWaH (with the vowels of adonay). From this hybrid spelling, the significance of which was known to every Jew, came the divine name JEHOVAH, current in English and other modern languages. This erroneous Hebrew pronunciation Jehovah was introduced by Christians at least as early as the fourteenth century and became current since the sixteenth. Whatever may be said of its pedigree, JEHOVAH is and should remain the proper English rendering of YAHWEH, the God of Israel..."
I have approx. 1,345 different English translations of the Bible or parts thereof in my collection and I use them all.
Another fact that should be considered in an answer to a question I addressed several years ago. "But scholars would deny that Jehovah is a correct rendering of the Hebrew and would opt for Yahweh instead."
From my research I have found that the first time Gods name was render Yahweh in any translations was 1895. This also shows the trend of modern day scholars (translators) which is that they are split 50/50 in their use of either Divine name. Its also interesting that all of the interlinear translations, made to date, use Jehovah. Why??? Is it because the rendering YAHWEH is not accepted by all scholars today?
The fact of the matter is no one living today can know for a certain how to pronounce Gods Divine name YHWH or JHVH.
Thus, I found your refusal to the use of the name "Jehovah" to be very weak. I personally use YAHWEH as Gods personal Divine name, but, I also know that YAHWEH is the Hebrew pronunciation and NOT the English pronunciation. Remember that the name JESUS is an English pronunciation and not the Hebrew pronunciation. Why are we not consistent?
Now, if Matthew did indeed write to the Jews in their own language, he would certainly have used God's name as it was in the Septuigent.
bchamber,
I have no problem with using the name Jehovah as it is grandfathred in by common use. But the point that I was bringing out about Matthew and other Gospel writers is quite valid. They kept to strict Jewish tradition and often used the word heavens in place of the word God. So there is no reason to even think that Matthew used God's name even if it appeared in the Septuigent. The very existence of the apostle Paul picked from among a persecuter of the faith demonstrated the fact that qualified disciples were lacking at the time for this very reason. He fought against apostles and Jewish Christians alike to correct such wrong thinking in his day. This historical struggle is enough to counter such thinking as it raged for well over 20 years.
Joseph
Bchamber
I understand the point you are making. However, i will try to explain how following this popular tradition (calling the jewish god jehovah) conflicts w the standards that the wt has set out, which it itself chooses not to follow. Here are some quote from it's literature that emphasize the importance of worshiping god in truth and honesty.
*** w75 6/15 356 What the Churches Do Not Tell You *** So the churches do not tell us these things, you may say. What difference does it really make? How does this affect my happiness and welfare?
It does because Jesus said: "This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) If you do not know the true Godthat He is superior to and separate and distinct from Jesus Christyou cannot worship God in the way that he approves. And our gaining eternal life in happiness in His new system of things is dependent on our accurately knowing and properly worshiping the only true God.
*** w74 4/15 247 Why Be Honest? *** This points to the most important factor of all: Gods good will and approval. Jehovah God approves only those who worship him "with spirit and truth," and his Son said that genuine freedom comes only with truth. (John 4:23, 24; 8:31, 32) Jehovah detests lying in all its formsdeception, boasting, slander, cheatingbecause it springs from selfishness, greed and a callous unconcern for the interests of others. (Prov. 6:16, 17; 11:1; Ps. 5:5, 6; 15:1-3) He knows that all mankinds troubles and suffering originally stem from lyingon the part of the "father of the lie," Satan, Gods principal enemy. (Gen. 3:1-5; John 8:44) Gods Word rightly associates lying with stealing, adultery and other serious wrongs becauseeither directly or indirectlypractically every kind of wrongdoing gets its start with or involves some form of dishonesty.Hos. 4:1, 2; Rom. 1:24-32; Rev. 21:8.
*** w73 9/15 550 A Bible in Every Catholic Home *** Do you have love and appreciation for the truth? If so, you will not take offense at the facts presented in this article.
However, now that you have seen for yourself that the teachings of the Catholic Church do not agree with the Bible, you must make a decision. Is it really your desire to be one who worships God in the way that He approves? Can you do that by sharing in worship with those who put human tradition ahead of Gods Word of truth? Remember that Jesus said: "True worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father wants."John 4:23, Jerusalem Bible.
Following, are some quotes where the wt emphasizes accurately knowing god and his name:
*** it-1 29 Abraham ***
Since true faith is based on accurate knowledge, Abraham may have received his understanding by personal association with Shem (their lives overlapped by 150 years). Abraham knew and used the name of Jehovah; to quote him: "Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth," "Jehovah, the God of the heavens and the God of the earth."Ge 14:22; 24:3.*** w94 5/1 6 Does It Matter How You Worship? ***
The Creators Standards for WorshipWhat is the proper way of worshiping God? The Bible teaches us that genuine worship is rooted in accurate knowledge. The great prophet Jesus Christ once told a Samaritan woman: "You worship what you do not know." (John 4:22) Could this, perhaps, be true of you too? Have you been taught that Almighty God has a personal name, Jehovah? (Psalm 83:18)
*** w93 6/15 27 Jehovah Changes Times and Seasons in Romania ***
They are grateful to Jehovah God that they are a part of the international congregation that bears his name and guides people to accurate knowledge of him and his unchangeable purpose.*** w93 9/15 16 Supply to Your Endurance Godly Devotion ***
9 What does it mean to have accurate knowledge of God and Christ? Clearly, it involves more than just knowing who they are. To illustrate: You may know who your next-door neighbor is and may even greet him by name. But would you lend him a large sum of money? Not unless you really knew what kind of person he is. (Compare Proverbs 11:15.) Similarly, knowing Jehovah and Jesus accurately, or fully, means more than merely believing that they exist and being aware of their names.
Note the how important it says that knowing gods name is. Then the wt makes a 180 degree turn and says that if the name of god is not prounced accurately, it isn't important. I know that fine points like this are hard for one who has never been a jw to appreciate. The wt/un issue has a similar, although greater level of hypocracy. For decades, it preached that the un was the most vile/dangerous/satanic body on the earth. Then, in 1991 the wt applied to join it as an ngo. Again, a 180 degree turn.
SS
Edited by - saintsatan on 21 August 2002 0:47:12Edited by - saintsatan on 21 August 2002 0:49:1
Evidence exists that it was not until early in the common era that the Divine Name, YHWH, came to be regarded by the Rabbis as too sacred to pronounce, substituting ADONAI, Hebrew meaning LORD, when reading the scriptures aloud containing YHWH.
EVIDENCE?? What evidence?? There is no evidence! Only traditional JEWISH STORIES.
Logically, that statement above CANNOT be true. Why?
In order to make this statement of WHEN the name was disregarded, the pronounciation must be KNOWN in order to know WHEN it was that it stopped being pronounced. The Jews say, we stopped using it here at this time. Well, how do you know? Because that's what my Rabbi told me, and his Rabbi told him and on and on and on. Who here belives the Jews as recorded in the Bible to be a trustworthy people? It seems to me by their RECORD in the Bible, this JEWISH story is surely a FABRICATED traditional lie that has been accepted as true, by JEWS and the WHOLE WORLD..
If the Jews say it was at such and such a point in time that we stopped uttering the name, the only way THAT statement can be proven TRUE is by knowing the pronounciation.
The Jews record of defying God in the Bible is eternal. It would fit the Jews character of record to say our superstitious tradition made the name disappear, even though the SYMBOL of God was ALWAYS unutterable. I am to believe a Jewish traditional superstition was more powerful than the SOUND of God's name? No way Jose'!
Can any man pronounce God's name? The ability for a man's tongue to utter the "name" of God is just as unapproachable as the same man building a house on the sun in the sky.
As I have said many time before. If an utterance from a man's mouth, namely a sound that is called a NAME for God, is SO important to God, that utterance would be here to this day FULLY ACCURATE 100% uncorrupted and not veiled under the man made traditional stories of Rabbi's who's record in the Bible is one of HIDING THE TRUTH OF GOD.
Edited by - pomegranate on 21 August 2002 8:0:43
Hey Pom, That name really gets you going! It reminds me of the Monty Python movie, THE LIFE OF BRIAN. Thety drove the Pharisees insane by their repetition of "JEHOVAH" until they started stoning people.
Jehovah ---
Is it the truth or is it a LIE?
It surely is NOT the truth, because the truth is NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO PRONOUNCE IT. The Creator of all things in heaven, the only true God, is the ONLY God with an unpronouncable name.
I DO HATE THAT "NAME" because of what that "NAME" has done to so many VICTIMS, FAMILIES, FRIENDS and LIVES.
Jehovah Jehovah roll over and die.
pomegranate
It seems to me that, from all that you say, that you really must NOT have any creditability as to what you say. You are anti-semite, anti-Christian, ant-everything. At least Joseph does try to give an objective opinion. people will listen to him because of that. If you want anyone of any intelligence to listen to what you say, then you need to change your attitude and how and what you say.
How do you know that Yahweh or Jehovah is NOT the correct pronunciation? You don't.
By the way, there are a lot of writings still in existence today from that period of time and so, don't you think it likely that when the Jews stopped pronouncing God name can not be ascertained? Just because they stop pronouncing His name doesn't mean they stop writing the Name or removed His name from their writings.
Joseph
If the Apostles and their immediate followers "kept to strict Jewish tradition", then why did they stop doing some of the traditions? Example being circumcision. This took place before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ce and so shortly after the death of Jesus. There are other traditions that we know about that they did not follow and so why would they not continue to use the Name that even Jesus used. That is a fact that you can not deny.
Yes, Paul was instrumental in helping to change some of the traditions that were strictly Jewish.
But, it was until after that when Matthew wrote his Gospel more than likely in Hebrew wher he was quoting from the Septuigent. Yes, he quoted from the Septuigent which can be determined from the words he used.
Well, I got to go. I will try to get back to this soon.
bchamber
