By the way, my post in not meant to be taken as a challenge to the current convictions of a non-theist. I don't believe that belief in a deity necessarily makes a person good or guarantees being "saved." It's a real question I have had for some time.
My proposal for Mankind to end all doubts...
by James Mixon 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
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DarioKehl
If god exists, he's an asshole.
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CalebInFloroda
And it's that "if" that I am truly wishing to know about, DarioKehl.
I want to make it plain that as a Jew I have no interest in converting anyone to my beliefs, convictions or doctrines. Unlike Christians I don't adopt the concept of "you must mentally acknowledge the same list of concepts I do to gain salvation." Jews don't believe atheists are lost or will go to some type of fiery hell or, if there is some future reward for us in the next world, are denied this because of their disbelief. We don't even actively attempt to bring you over to our side as you aren't lost or wrong if you don't believe as Jews do.
But I am interested in this concept of "if there was proof, I would change."
If one does not believe in G-d, why would so many of the same people challenge others for "proof"? Are they just trying to show how foolish others are? Would they be convinced if such evidence did exist? What advantage does one gain in destroying or attempting to destroy or challenge the convictions of another? Does not the possibility that empirical evidence of a deity changing one's mind belie the claim of some atheists' stand who also say such evidence will convince them?
To illustrate: I believe in the Dalai Lama's existence, but this doesn't mean I'm a follower. I believe Jesus of Nazareth was a miracle-working rabbi, but as a Jew I don't believe he was the Messiah. I don't believe in Santa Claus and as a consequence I don't spend time debating online championing my disbelief in Saint Nick to challenge Santa believers to prove their convictions to me. Santa doesn't exist, so such would be illogical and at least in my mind a waste of time. So I would like to expand in this area and open my mind more to comprehend what is going on here.
In an effort to understand, why would evidence in the G-d of Abraham, such as any of those mentioned in the OP, change an unbeliever's mind? Would not that make any subsequent belief a bit hypocritical if only afterward you believed, because you saw something like the Red Sea splitting apart? Why can't people disbelieve in a deity that has empirical evidence for their existence? It takes no courage to disbelieve in something that isn't real.
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azor
Caleb the issue is faith. I for one wonder if Jesus ever existed. Check out Richard Carrier on the historicity of Jesus. Belief in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny is not a worldwide phenomena exerting its influence on policies. Theism is and that is the problem. I just finished listening to "the end of faith" by Sam Harris and he lays out pretty convincingly why faith is and will continue to wreak havoc on mankind as long as it exists.
If faith is not challenged it will continue to exert control over people's lives. People that have no choice because of where and when they were born, and others that have no belief at all. An example of its influence is that a majority in the U.S. believe evolution is a myth. A third of the world are taught in their holy book that they should kill all infidels.
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John Aquila
But I am interested in this concept of "if there was proof, I would change."
Does not the possibility that empirical evidence of a deity changing one's mind belie the claim of some atheists' stand who also say such evidence will convince them?
Belief is provisional. If I lived in the 16th century, my belief would be that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the earth. If some crazy old man told me that the Sun is at rest near the center of the Universe, and that the Earth, spinning on its axis once daily, revolves annually around the Sun I would challenge him and demand proof.
And if I was given that proof, and the proof turned out to be true, I would change my belief.
Belief should be dynamic not static because all truth claims and beliefs are tentative and open to revision if new evidence is discovered.
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CalebInFloroda
Thanks Azor. This helps a lot. It was a while since I was a Jehovah's Witness and of course they had the incorrect view of everybody, especially atheists, so this aids me in understanding.
In light of this please correct me if I am wrong (as I just want to see if I got it):
So the atheism you are talking about is within the paradigm of what Christianity views as important, namely what one believes, yes?
I ask this because faith is not an issue in Judaism. Whether Jesus ever existed is not important either. A Jew’s belief in G-d’s existence means little in and of itself. Faith is just a mental acknowledgement of something, and in this Eastern paradigm believing in something has just as much effect and merit as not believing in it. We are defined by our actions, not just by what set of convictions we adhere to. Response to the G-d issue, for or against, is what is meaningful in the world, and a belief in the existence of G-d or the lack of such mental acknowledgement neither adds nor takes away the value of the good anyone can bring to life and society. You are good because you do good, not because you claim to believe in a set of mental lines of creed, religious or not, which you claim brings enlightenment or truth.
But within the Christian paradigm where I lived in when I was a JW, I understand that what one mentally acknowledges holds great weight. A mere “belief” can mean salvation or the lack of it, the difference between being accepted and being shunned.
So it is just within this Christian paradigm in which a non-theist who claims, “I will believe if you can prove it to me,” that this statements are being made. They are not absolute, in other words. Like doubting Thomas, if the deity proves itself then the theist’s claims that he or she will offer up mental acknowledgement of and trust in that deity will occur. It is tantamount to saying if one does not agree with the creed of one group or the definition of one deity over another, the theist will stand their ground unless one comes that changes their mind—kind of like(but not exactly) shopping around for a church or religion (because the important thing in this paradigm is what one mentally acknowledges)?
But it is not the same as me saying that despite Jesus existing or not, I don’t believe he is the Messiah my people have waited for. Where I have no problem telling a returned Jesus this, the atheist on the other hand would accept miracles as proof of a deity (if Jesus showed up on their doorstep amid miraculous events they would "sign up" for theism). I gather then the meaning of their stand is conditional? In other words you wouldn’t tell a god who performed miracles, “I still don’t believe in you, even though you moved those mountains and raised those dead people.” If the mountains moved and the dead rose, you would believe in the one who performed such things.
For me Jesus can move all the mountains he wants in front of me, it doesn’t make him the Messiah and I don’t mind telling him so. This changes not whether he truly exists or he doesn’t. (But some atheists might change their minds in the face of such things, perhaps?) Okay, I get it. I also see the logic of taking the other stand of believing because of seeing great wonders.
Thanks again for your input. I was curious if it was comparable to my view or not. I understand now.
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CalebInFloroda
Thanks too, John. You comments are extremely helpful.
It's been longer than I thought since my time going door-to-door (which I now realize is changing in the JW world). And as a kid I just didn't see or grasp the whole "faith" thing or the concept of belief. So when I dismissed it upon reverting to Judaism as an adult I just lost grasp of the whole thing of how important it was.
But there does appear to be a difference in some atheism. You might say there appears to be an atheistic response to Christianity (that sometimes includes Judaism because of the silly claims Christians make about our own religion and texts) and atheism in those who just reject the idea of deities in general (an ex-boyfriend of mine was of the latter, a scientist who never grew up with any belief in deities whatsoever).
This also seems to cause a difference in the attitude of the atheist. The one who responds to Christianity seems to adopt the evangelistic approach and has a need to "prove" their side as a response to the same activity they are constantly challenged with by Christians who are constantly trying to "save" them. Where this does not exist the non-theist seems to lack this activity in their lives and often sees no value in even arguing it (and most I know are like this, but then again that may be cultural).
I do admire the response to Christianity in many atheists, though. Just the other day one of those "Jews for Jesus" people told me: "You know, we are so worried for you Jews. We don't want you to end up in hell."
Made me think, This lady goes around all day thinking I am heading to hell because I'm a Jew! What a lovely set of Christian and religious values in general, huh?
So I really don't have an issue with atheists. I totally get it. Just asking about the "prove" thing. Thanks again!
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James Mixon
CalebinFloroda: appreciate your input. I have a sincere question for you.
Are Jews still GOD's chosen people? What is Judaism teaching on this subject?
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CalebInFloroda
Hi James,
Judaism teaches that all nations have been chosen by G-d to follow the destiny set out for each. Therefore when one reads that the Jews were "chosen" by G-d, it means "chosen" in reference to their specific destiny. It does not make us any more special than others. Even nations that worshipped heathen gods still bring their "piece of the puzzle" that makes society work and beneficial for all. All different nations and ethnic groups actually rely on one another, and peace is actually when each follows through with whatever they are supposed to be doing and when others allow them the freedom to do this.
Christianity might have been responsible for changing the "chosen" interpretation to "special." In their eyes they have replaced the Jews as G-d's people (where as in Judaism all humans are G-d's people), interpreting Hebrew Scripture texts in such as way as to make them, Christians, sound as if they were more enlightened, more essential, and in some way therefore more important to the history of humankind. (As a consequence this idea that this is how Jews also feel about themselves often gets mistakenly transferred to us.) Christians have even given this economy a theological name: "salvation history." Whereas the Jews see themselves as being saved by G-d, Christians turned this around to make them sound as the "chosen people" assigned to save the world through the preaching of the Gospel.
Now if you mean by your question, do Jews still see themselves in a covenant relationship with G-d? The answer would be "yes." However we also understand the Law of Moses as something that is fluid with the changing needs of G-d's people, so how we respond to G-d today through Torah observance differs from the way it was carried out centuries ago.
Lastly you might find it interesting to note that Jews take an approach to G-d more in line with atheism than one like Christianity. Belief in G-d is not as important as how one brings G-d into the world. One line of thought is for Jews to act as if there is no G-d, and therefore to act as G-d for the world. This means not teaching others to worship according to some creed but caring for the world and for people as G-d would "in G-d's absence," so to speak. Instead of debating over the existence or nature of G-d, Jews get up and do something to help the world. In that way they are "chosen" to be G-d for a world without one.
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James Mixon
Calebin: Thanks. My early years in the organization a friend was Jewish.
I never got the opportunity to sit and talk with him, he was a elder and
I was new in the organization. But i was curious why he became a JW.
I thought if this man believe it's the truth, by GOD it must be...
To go from Judaism too JW, that a big stretch..