Should we care about "lurkers"?

by expatbrit 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    Ive noticed some discussion on the question of whether we should be concerned about moderating our behaviour because of what lurking JWs will think. Should we be concerned about scaring off JWs who may be starting to question the WT, or should anything go because if they can't deal with the real world it's not our problem and we should be ourselves?

    The following are some of my thoughts. They are my opinions only, and this post is NOT intended to start a board war or even an interboard war. If it does, I'll request Simon to delete the thread.

    It is impractical for all of the participants of a discussion board to try and present a picture that will never offend any lurking JWs. No matter how hard you try, there will always be someone who will get offended, even though it be at something trivial like the mere mention of Harry Potter. In fact, there is only one person's opinion in this area that is relevant on any discussion board, and that is its legal owner, who bears responsibility for its content. Any discussion board will therefore tend to attract people whose attitude broadly agrees with its owner, and repel those whose attitudes are markedly different.

    But I do disagree with the idea that we shouldnt care what lurking JWs think because this is the "real world." This kind of statement is based upon an underlying assumption that (in my opinion) is incorrect. The underlying assumption is that ex-JW discussion boards present a reasonably accurate facsimile of non-JW mainstream society, the "real world."

    Consider the behaviour exhibited upon those boards that have very limited or no moderation, the extreme foul language, abusive argumentation, character assassinations, group witchhunts and explicit pornography and sexual talk. All exhibited by people who have mostly never met each other, spend very little time together and know each other only superficially. Are average people in mainstream society behaving this way with superficial acquaintances? I dont think so.

    That is why I can say that not only would I not refer a questioning JW to a discussion board, I also would not refer a "worldly" person to one either, because I think it very likely that they too would be disgusted and repulsed by what they saw there. (This is based on consideration of those "worldly" people I am acquainted with, who range from low-income and homeless people to university professors and millionaires). I know of one poster who did in fact refer a colleague, with this exact result.

    Ex-JW boards do not reflect mainstream society, they are not the real world. Even though a majority of members may not be of an extremist nature, the atmosphere of an ex-JW discussion board is more akin to an extremist fringe of society, say for instance militant animal rights activists or violent anti-globalisation protestors. Why is this?

    The hoary old illustration of the spring comes to mind. As we all know, this is used by the Watchtower in reference to child raising. However, it is also applicable to people who leave the Watchtower. JWs are kept like a tightly coiled spring, and when they leave, they go boing! and frequently stretch to the other extreme. Where they were forced into conformity, they become violently argumentative. Where they were forced into a constricted morality, they become promiscuous. Where everything revolved around the organisation, they become opposed to any form of organisation. Where they were told that if they didnt agree with something it was always because of their own faulty reasoning, they become unwilling to accept that sometimes this is true. Where certain words and phrases are used by the WT, any

    use of these words and phrases in the same context is considered evidence of Watchtower thinking. And so on.

    Eventually I think, most moderate into fairly average attitudes, like a spring regaining its natural shape and tension. A few don't, and remain extreme. On ex-JW boards, there are both those in the initial stage of "springing" from the Watchtower, and those who have remained at the other extreme rather than moderating over time. Even though they are a minority, they are aggressively vocal, and thus tend to dominate out of proportion to their numbers in the contained environment of a discussion board. In mainstream society, these fringes have much less of an influence because their views are far more diluted.

    Thus, the idea that we shouldn't have to moderate our behaviour because this is the real world is not true. This is not the real world. Mainstream society is far more moderated than we are on these discussion boards. If we put off JWs because they are still held in the grasp of Watchtower conditioning, that is not something we should be concerned about. But if we put off JWs and average "worldly" people because of our extreme anti-social and emotionally unbalanced behaviour as a group, that is something we should feel considerably ashamed of, and try to improve on. If most people who come into contact with us are repulsed, perhaps some self-analysis of our behaviour would be a good thing. In this case, saying we should "be ourselves" goes beyond an exercise of freedom and becomes a denial of social responsibility, and a breaking of the social contract.

    Expatbrit

    Edited by - expatbrit on 28 August 2002 15:29:14

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    I think the salient point you brought out ExPat is about "being ourselves". There are many types of ex-JW boards on the Net, ranging from fundamentalist Christian, to Pagan, to homey-chatty, to research laden, etc.

    In order to please any potential lurkers, ex-JWs would need to become homogenized....an expatriated (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) JW following the same rules of "unity" at all costs.

    While some boards might prove offensive to a lurking JW, if they are serious about finding the truth about the truth, they will have a plethora of information to access.

    The major reason for ex-JW boards, IMO, is to provide a community where EX JWs can discuss issues that concern them. These are not conversion (or de-conversion) boards, even though they may, at times, serve that purpose.

  • ISP
    ISP

    I was a dub. I know what worked for me. I know what didn't. Being belittled didn't. Being dealt with understanding worked eventually. I exchanged quite a few posts with 'Seeker'. I would say that his style rules. It did for me. I am glad the board is how it is now. It is also good that there is another board where those who want to can go and do what they want.

    ISP

    Edited by - ISP on 28 August 2002 16:19:11

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    IMHO - Sometimes those other boards get out of hand. Taking the 'high road' with a touch 'class' is always a positive.

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    Well, I was going to reply in e-mail, however, since no one will address this, I will.

    I am sure you are referring to my post to Celtic's thread. And perhaps to Jan's thread on bboy's db.

    Of course we should care about lurkers. On the other hand, if they have the internet they have seen lots of stuff they would normally not--as a good JW. Like porn. Who has not opened their e-mail to porn. Lots of it. Wow, you've seen one pair of boobies; they all look the same to me. However, I am a woman.

    The statement that "I am embarrassed to show someone this site", which many here have expressed, I do not agree with. I just cannot believe that the majority of JWs have not heard foul language, used foul language, looked at porn and thought of pyramid schemes and how to profit from them. My mother curses like a sailor. I learned every word I know from her. She taught me how to curse in Polish so people would not know you were insulting them and calling them vile names. When Vanessa Williams was photographed in Penthouse, my mother ran out and bought a copy. She wanted to see how far Miss America has fallen. This is someone who has been a JW for 35 years.

    When I logged on to this site there were pornographic photos, descriptions of every type of sexual position, etc. That was one year ago. I decided that I could look at that or skim it, see that I was not interested and look for threads that caught my interest.

    Eventually I think, most moderate into fairly average attitudes, like a spring regaining its natural shape and tension. A few don't, and remain extreme. On ex-JW boards, there are both those in the initial stage of "springing" from the Watchtower, and those who have remained at the other extreme rather than moderating over time. Even though they are a minority, they are aggressively vocal, and thus tend to dominate out of proportion to their numbers in the contained environment of a discussion board. In mainstream society, these fringes have much less of an influence because their views are far more diluted.

    I agree. That is happening here. Just since last year. That will happen on the other board also.

    Thus, the idea that we shouldn't have to moderate our behaviour because this is the real world is not true. This is not the real world. Mainstream society is far more moderated than we are on these discussion boards. If we put off JWs because they are still held in the grasp of Watchtower conditioning, that is not something we should be concerned about. But if we put off JWs and average "worldly" people because of our extreme anti-social and emotionally unbalanced behaviour as a group, that is something we should feel considerably ashamed of, and try to improve on. If most people who come into contact with us are repulsed, perhaps some self-analysis of our behaviour would be a good thing. In this case, saying we should "be ourselves" goes beyond an exercise of freedom and becomes a denial of social responsibility, and a breaking of the social contract.

    This is a very conservative DB. In the real world I will joke to my friends that I am like "Martha FXXXing Stewart" when they compliment me on my culinary and domestic skills. They are all worldly, went to college and have successful careers. They send each other dirty jokes and curse as the situation deems necessary. I don't think they, nor am I, anti-social or emotionally unbalanced. However, I did see somewhere, I cannot recall, someone wrote that Jws are messed up; ex-JWs are really messed up.

    Leaving the dubs is like going away to college (for normal people who don't eschew education and thinking). You get out and want to try it all. You do and, usually, you go back to being like you were.

    You curse sometimes, you laugh at dirty jokes, you talk about sex with people you discuss religion with the same people, you go to work and do it all again. That to me is the real world.

  • Simon
    Simon

    To answer the straightforward question "Should we care about 'Lurkers'?" I would say:

    Yes, Absolutely - some of the people I care most about are 'lurkers' on this site!

    The real question though is whether we should alter our behaviour because of lurkers:

    There are good and valid arguments on both sides which many of us have heard before so I won't rehash them all. My opinion is that we should have some sort of reasonable balance - we should not change to pander to some 'over righteous' JWs and neither should we go out of our way to cause offence.

    I simply want to have a site that appeals to all the reasonable people. Those who can see and appreciate good points and debate, are not too offended by the odd bit of colorful language and are open to considering other people's opinions.

    Some of the rules for the site are made with this in mind but they are not for the purpose of putting on any false pretence to trick people into coming here (what would be the point?). I simply prefer to visit this sort of site myself and associate with the sort of people who would prefer to visit this sort of site.

    And remember - we were lurkers once!

  • LB
    LB

    We certainly can't be fake about things. The lurkers will see through that. I like the way things are done here. We have our problems, get vocal occasionaly and yet there are certain guidelines that have to be followed in order to be able to stay here. I think that alone gives a good witness.

    I recall lurking over at H20 a few years back. Sure the idiots would reinforce my anti-apostate feelings but every so often someone very decent would post a personal experience that had more than a ring of truth about it. The same happens here. I recall reading a post about how superior acting many elderettes act. Boy that sure hit home.

  • Simon
    Simon

    I do disagree about the pornographic pictures though!

    While some of the sex topics have been discussed quite openly at times and people have got a bit carried away posting pictures, I have always tried to keep porn off the site and will continue to do so. Perhaps it's just that the definition of porn is different for each person though? (or I missed something!)

    (just didn't want people thinking porn was welcomed here either way)

    Edited by - simon on 28 August 2002 16:28:11

  • ISP
    ISP

    There has to be a balance between the silent but sizable 'lurkers' and those that are the majority here...xjws. For xjws we want a place to hang out, exchange ideas, get support and make contacts. I think there has to be some enforced civility so it does not degenerate.

    ISP

  • blondie
    blondie

    I was a lurker for a long time. It did frighten me to see how aggressively some pursued a topic or a participant. Having grown up in an abusive family, I didn't want to attract that attention. But now I see that I don't seem to provoke that, mostly I feel that they have other fish to fry and I'm only a turtle. The posts of some on here encouraged me to try to post something informative but not provocative. Some of the threads here get heated up so quickly, I can hardly tell what was the combustible and what set it afire. I know I still have anger stored up that I try to do in a way that doesn't hurt others or me.

    Most of us are here because we have been hurt and betrayed. And then we can turn around and do the same to others.

    As to swear words, I've heard them all; even provoked some from the elders. I found it an easy way to get them off the topic I didn't want to discuss. I would swear at home to get my parents talking about that rather than the topic they originally approached me about.

    The only thing that scares me is that some very hurtful and hateful things can be said in the heat of the moment that are very hard to take back later. We want to make our point not shove into someone's back.

    Well, that is more revealing than I intended. May things continue to go well for all. I hope we can all continue to help those abused feel there is somewhere else to go.

    Blondie (Who can find better porn sites than JWD class)

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit