by UnDisfellowshipped 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
UnDisfellowshipped,
It was all so simple. (I am) in small letters not caps. Some translations use caps because they intentionally attempt to mislead you, they lie about it. After all it is all translation dependent anyway not something upon which some profound Exodus connection can be based. If we are to be so easily mislead, how then will we ever grasp the truth of scripture? But what surprised me is that you listened to bchamber. Perhaps there is still hope for some.
Joseph
First of all, I want to sincerely Thank all of you for Posting your Comments!
I would like to clarify a few things:
My only goal and purpose in studying the Bible is to arrive at the TRUTH and to have a closer relationship with God and to do His Will.
I try to keep a very open mind about things.
I do not believe that this Thread was a "waste of time", because, apparently, there are several people who believe that Jesus used the "I AM" statement as a Name for Himself, and there are several people who think He was just saying that He existed before Abraham.
So, this Thread can be used as a sort of "Resource Page" for everyone who has questions about the "I AM" statements.
Also, I do not believe that any study of the Bible is a "waste of time".
JosephMalik, you have made very good comments, and it does appear that Jesus was simply stating that He existed before Abraham in John 8:58.
You will also notice, that in the Links I posted, there were some Websites that were saying that "I am" meant that He was not using it as a Name.
I will now give some of my own personal beliefs, ideas, and opinions on some of your Comments:
JosephMalik said:
Calling Jesus our God is not a problem. This term is not a name and can be used for anyone in authority, like a ruler or King. That is something that Trinitarians do NOT want you to know. They keep saying that this makes two Gods when the context determines what is said or meant. Context is something not grasped by many as it is a quality in the text that must be discerned.
You are definitely correct, "God" is a Title, which can be used for Rulers. However, according to the Scriptures there is only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, correct? I believe that Jesus Christ is called the ALMIGHTY GOD in the Scriptures:
(World English Bible)
Jeremiah 10:10: But Yahweh is the True God; He is the Living God, and an Everlasting King: at His wrath the Earth trembles, and the nations are not able to abide His indignation.
Jeremiah 10:11: Thus shall you say to them, The gods that have not made the Heavens and the Earth, these shall perish from the Earth, and from under the Heavens.
Jeremiah 10:12: He has made the Earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, and by His understanding has He stretched out the Heavens:
Jeremiah 10:13: when he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the Heavens, and He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the Earth; He makes lightnings for the rain, and brings forth the wind out of His treasuries.
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens ALONE; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?);
Hebrews 1:10: (The Father speaking to the Son) And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of YOUR HANDS.
Hebrews 1:11: They will perish, but You continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
Hebrews 1:12: As a mantle You will roll them up, And they will be changed; But You are the Same. Your years will not fail."
Colossians 1:15: (Jesus Christ) who is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:16: For BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH HIM, AND FOR HIM.
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Colossians 1:18: He is the Head of the Body, the Assembly, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19: For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him;
Colossians 2:9: For in Him all the Fullness of the Godhead (or Deity) dwells Bodily,
Colossians 2:10: and in Him you are made full, who is the Head of all principality and power;
Philippians 2:5: Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6: who, existing in the Form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Philippians 2:7: but emptied Himself, taking the Form of a Servant, being made in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:8: And being found in Human Form, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the Cross.
Philippians 2:9: Therefore God also highly exalted Him, and gave to Him the Name which is ABOVE EVERY NAME;
Philippians 2:10: that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in Heaven, those on Earth, and those under the Earth,
Philippians 2:11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3: All things were made through Him. Without Him was not anything made that has been made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him.
I will be Posting a New Thread on this subject soon.
JosephMalik said:
And the deity of Christ does not mean the Trinity of Christ. The word deity simply does not mean what they say it does. Will someone please show us all the scriptural definition of Deity. Show the verses and all. Show why Deity means trinity? I have tried to get such a definition for years now and still no one has shown me one. Trinitarian use of Deity is a LIE pure and simple.
Here is a Verse that shows Jesus Christ's Deity, or "Godhead":
Colossians 2:9: For in Him all the Fullness of the Godhead (or Deity) dwells Bodily
Here is the Biblical Definition of the word "Godhead", according to some different sources:
Thayer's Greek Definitions:
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from G2316 (theos)
Citing in TDNT: 3:119, 322
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries:
G2320
θεότης
theotēs
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.
Here is the Webster Dictionary's Definition of "Deity":
1-A: The rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY
1-B: Capitalized: GOD (1st Definition Listed under "God"), SUPREME BEING
2: A god or goddess 3: One exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
Here is the Webster Dictionary's Definition of "God":
1: Capitalized: The supreme or ultimate reality: as A): the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe B): Christian Science: the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit: infinite Mind
2: A being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3: A person or thing of supreme value
4: A powerful ruler
Here is the Webster Dictionary's Definition of "Godhead":
1: Divine nature or essence: DIVINITY
2: Capitalized A): GOD (1st Definition Listed under "God") B): The nature of God especially as existing in three persons used with the
-------------------------------------------------
Jesus Christ's Deity does NOT prove that there is a Trinity, it proves that the Father and the Son are God (the Son being in subjection to the Father, and I believe that is why Jesus said the Father was greater than He was, because the Father's Position, not His Nature - I read somewhere that the word "greater" means higher in position, but the word "better" means higher in nature, I don't know if that is correct though).
However, it is when you consider the Holy Spirit that you arrive at the Trinity. I am curious, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit?
JosephMalik said:
The present dual nature of the Christ is something no one wants to understand and Trinitarians attempt to deny but it is there in scripture. This dual nature will be maintained at least until the final test is completed. The earthly Kingdom and Rule by Christ is something that the WT denies but it is there in scripture for all to read. Such battles rage on and on because it is not reason but the view of organizations that rule the Faith at present.
Could you please explain further about the dual nature of Christ, I'm not sure I understood your comments about it, and also please explain your comments on the Earthly Kingdom.
Thanks again everyone for Posting!
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 3 September 2002 1:19:42
JosephMalik said:
Calling Jesus our God is not a problem. This term is not a name and can be used for anyone in authority, like a ruler or King. That is something that Trinitarians do NOT want you to know. They keep saying that this makes two Gods when the context determines what is said or meant. Context is something not grasped by many as it is a quality in the text that must be discerned.
You are definitely correct, "God" is a Title, which can be used for Rulers. However, according to the Scriptures there is only ONE ALMIGHTY GOD, correct? I believe that Jesus Christ is called the ALMIGHTY GOD in the Scriptures:
UnDisfellolwshipped,
Almighty God, Almighty King, makes no difference. The context is not that of the Supreme Being. Word matches do not prove identity. This is the reason why this argument has raged on for so long. Context is something we must discern, it is not always obvious. And this is why names mean so much more than titles. Titles and expressions can be shared. Names are not.
The Supreme Being made the heavens and the earth personally in the beginning. That much the scriptures show. But the Word made the human beings that live on it (called the world) personally. He was directed by God when He was with God but the WORD performed the actual tasks. The beginning in John 1:1 is the beginning of man not the universe as in Gen. 1:1. And this Word that was with God was not another God with God. No! this Word that was with God was God to mankind as its creator. The context is not one of equality with God but superiority over man which is what is really being discussed in John.
JosephMalik said:
And the deity of Christ does not mean the Trinity of Christ. The word deity simply does not mean what they say it does. Will someone please show us all the scriptural definition of Deity. Show the verses and all. Show why Deity means trinity? I have tried to get such a definition for years now and still no one has shown me one. Trinitarian use of Deity is a LIE pure and simple.
Here is a Verse that shows Jesus Christ's Deity, or "Godhead":
Deity, Godhead, are all the same translated from words that deal more with idolatry than anything else. Does anyone know what they really mean other than the context of the texts in which they are used? How then can anyone define them so precisely? And they can be applied to more than one person or Being. Such terms simply indicate a higher level of thought than the thinking that caused the idolatry under discussion in most of the texts. And we should also have a higher level of appreciation for our Lord who has the same qualities as His Father on such matters.
UnDisfellowshipped said: However, it is when you consider the Holy Spirit that you arrive at the Trinity. I am curious, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit?
You would have to list all the terms and examine all the texts. Then you would soon learn that it is used in many ways to simplify a complex discussion, leaving the details to be filled in by the reader. Something like the letter x in a formula for which we must solve. More often than not it is used to represent some good, but sometimes it is simply used to represent the faith or the assembly or some happening good or bad. It is translated as He when it should have been translated as it. And when it is describing a person it could be a He because it is that person. It is a variable like so many Hebrew terms. Heaven is another variable because to Jews it is another term for God or authority. It is not wonder that so many have been confused by it.
JosephMalik said:
The present dual nature of the Christ is something no one wants to understand and Trinitarians attempt to deny but it is there in scripture. This dual nature will be maintained at least until the final test is completed. The earthly Kingdom and Rule by Christ is something that the WT denies but it is there in scripture for all to read. Such battles rage on and on because it is not reason but the view of organizations that rule the Faith at present.
Could you please explain further about the dual nature of Christ, I'm not sure I understood your comments about it, and also please explain your comments on the Earthly Kingdom.
It means that the Christ is NOW both Human and Deity (non Human higher than man). For such reasons the Christ is identified as man in scripture at times and as a non human at others. Such use is now valid and proper. When He raised His own body after His execution, (not his prior life as the WORD) this body was not given up as the Watchtower teaches. He was permitted by His Father to keep it, to take it back and use it to further the interest of the Kingdom. None of this changed history or the sacrifice offered. And this was the only human body to achieve immortality here on earth. As a consequence our Lord will reward man by giving them an immortal human body such as His. So the scriptures make a special point in bringing all this out. Further use of this immortal human body such as its return here to rule over the promised kingdom is assured by this dual nature which I believe will continue for at least the symbolic 1000 years.
Failure to understand Jewish use of the term heaven is the problem and main reason why so many think they are going to such a far away and unknown place. You will find this all discussed on my web page at http://localsonly.wilmington.net/jmalik/ Joseph
That was a Great Post Joseph!
Thanks!
One last Scripture on this Thread to think about (any comments on this Scripture?):
Isaiah 44:6: Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, AND His Redeemer, Yahweh of Hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God.
Comment on what? The first and last or besides me there is no God?
Use of the term God to designate the Supreme Being is one thing. There being no God in this context knocks out the Trinity. There cannot be three that make up the one Me (Yahweh, very specific and not shared). The expression first and last here is in this very same context so that takes out the Trinity as well. But the use of the term in the Revelation is different. (Disregard such use in Rev. 1:11 a spurious text see NAS) There it is used in another context so there is no conflict. How so?
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
This is not talking about the Supreme Being, nor is it attempting to identify such as God. It is talking about death and resurrection and the one that had conquered it. So phrases may be similar but the context is not. Mixing such phrases in the same book is not the issue. Only the context is as shown.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 4 September 2002 11:6:2
Edited by - JosephMalik on 4 September 2002 11:8:36
I'm sorry, I should have clarified the part of the Scripture I was curious about.
Isaiah 44:6: Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, AND His Redeemer, Yahweh of Hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God.
The way I had interpreted it, it sounded like there were TWO Yahwehs being mentioned in this Scripture: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel, AND His Redeemer, Yahweh of Hosts".
So, I was thinking that Yahweh, the King of Israel, was The Father, and the Yahweh of Hosts the Redeemer was The Son.
I may not be reading this Scripture correctly, but it does sound like there are TWO Yahwehs mentioned.
I will be starting another Thread in a few minutes about JESUS CHRIST -- ALPHA AND OMEGA.
Thanks for your comments.
P.S. Is the part where it says "and his Redeemer" referring to Israel as the "his"?
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 5 September 2002 1:30:55
(2.) They are his chosen, and he will abide by his choice; he knows those that are his, and those whom he has chosen he takes under special protection.
UnDisfellowshipped,
You would have to read back and see the whole context but this comment from MHC makes sense. The faith is not something new, it is treated like a person, we understand it in our time as the body of Christ which gives it personality, humanity and dignity. So I would say the him was Israel or at least some selected portion of it to which Isaiah is referring.
Now if the word redeemer is the problem, the text should be understood from the perspective given as there are two redeemers in scripture. But without the provision of the one, the other would not exist so such use is quite proper. Perspective, context? Just pay attention and it all makes sense. There is a chain of command just as there is between Father and Son.
On Alpha and Omega. Such use where there are 4 and more conversations all flowing together with additional visions and changes mixed in makes proving anything difficult. That is why we must depend on root texts and build up from them, not go to symbolic texts for proofs. The error rate for the latter is very high and undependable. Building from root texts on the other hand elimiantes much of the speculation beforehand and permits a more rational view of matters.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 September 2002 2:27:7
Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 September 2002 2:34:34
Thanks again for your comments, here is a Link to the "ALPHA AND OMEGA" Thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3
UnDisfellowshipped,
I saw the thread but it means nothing. Scriptures without comment are not worth much for purposess of discussion. The thread is too long and nearly everything in it has already been covered in my 56 page document called "Beyond Trinitarianism" found on my web page. You have not furnished any proof that the Alph and Omega is Jesus. All you have are undocumented assumptions already discussed in principle in this thread.
Joseph
