Bible History

by bitsnbobs 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    Your giving the writings in the bible way to much credibility. Your saying in that the Noah story written roughly 500 bc is more accurate then the two or three that came a thousand years or more before it which would put these stories closer to Noah. So Noah tells his story to his offspring they get it wrong for a thousand years or more then all of a sudden at about 500 bc a Jewish writer gets is right somehow. Yet these same Jewish writers state that god created the vegetation before the Sun and made several more discrepancies in the creation story. And lets not forget how imposable the Noah's story is with millions of different animals and insects etc on a 450-500 foot boat for a year where one would need to store up over 500 tons of food just for the elephants alone.

    I need to go smoke a joint or something so I can get on your wave length or something before we can continue with this conversation.

  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII
    Crazyguy3 hours agoI would say in your last response to me that If Solomon did exist he was an Egyptian king and not a Jewish one. The Egyptians ruled the Levant during either timeline you chose and there is plenty of evidence that some of the cities mentioned in the bible and surmised to be in the Levant were and are actually in Egypt. So again if Solomon was and Egyptian King which is more plausible in my opinion then where does that leave the Jews? Still just a small back water loose coalition of peoples living in Judea an area unable to support the kind of population needed back then to do anything that the Jews claimed David and his Son Solomon did.
    Very interesting. I haven't come across this concept before.

    In archaeology, a focus is on the similar gates at Gezer, Hazor and Meggido, specifically mentioned as places where Solomon built. In fact, they call these gates the "Solomonic" gates. I suppose not everything in archaeology is not always in black and white. But I'd question your position because of Shishak. Shishak invaded the region, an account recorded in the Bible, and he mentioned many of the cities found in the Bible, including Megiddo. That destructive level is very distinct at several cities specifically mentioned by Shishak. So are you saying Shishak attacked someone other than the Israelites?

    Ultimately, the Israelites are confirmed by the pagan records of Moab (Mesha stele) and Assyria (Shalmaneser III). Of course, the earliest reference to the Israelites as a people was by Mereneptah. So I just don't see where a valid claim comes from that the Israelites did not have a powerful kingdom by the early 9th Century BC, which is where Israel Finkelstein confirms the great building works attributed to Solomon were built. Of course, the dated destructive level by Shishak is also dated to the early 9th Century. So there is much harmony as far as the relative chronology for this event in relation to the Bible.

    Thanks for sharing your reference. I didn't realize it was so difficult to acknowledge Solomon as a real king based on archaeology. Shishak attacked Israel near the very end of Solomon's rule.
  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII

    Getting back to Genesis 3:15, I have a problem with the assignment of "the woman" as Jehovah's wife. That's because, generally speaking, we can understand the concept of the angelic population in heaven being like Jehovah's wife. But what about Satan? For "the woman" to be Jehovah's wife, you have to define that wife as just the faithful angels. But that leaves out who represents Satan and the 1/3rd rebel angels? Do they make another wife of Jehovah? The unfaithful wife? Since you have to exclude Satan and 1/3 of the angels from Jehovah's "wife" that woman being Jehovah's wife doesn't work for me.

    Instead, again, I see this as establishing the enmity and division between Christ and his seed and Satan and his seed, only in the context of Eden, Satan is called "the woman" since she functioned as the wife of Christ in heaven up until now, and will be replaced by the 144,000 as Christ's new, but replacement wife.

    This special connection between Christ and his wife and Mount Zion is reflected by the emblems in the Most Holy between the two covering cherubs whose wings cover the top of the ark. Satan is identified as one of these "covering cherubs" who had to be cast out of Mount Zion. Ezekiel 28:14:

    "


    13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed CHERUB WHO COVERS, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you."


    Satan is called the "cherub that covers." This is a reference to one of the two cherubs whose wing covers the top of the ark of the covenant, representing Mount Zion. We know these are not simply symbolic angels because on the curtains the images of the cherubs are alternating between a cherub with the face of a man, representing Jesus Christ and a palm tree figure, which is a feminine figure and thus the lesser angel.


    Further, Christ is represented on the breastplate of the high priest by 12 stones. Satan by only nine stones; another indication that these are two specific angels in heaven with a special relationship in regards to God's holiness on Mount Zion, a position we note becomes that of Christ's bride.


    So if the two cherubs in this special relationship is considered to be husband and wife, then we know Satan was the original wife of Jesus who sinned against him. In Eden, Satan became the "pattern" for Eve and the Tree of Knowledge. So when God pronounces: "I will put enmity between YOU and the WOMAN and between your seed and her seed" he is addressing Jesus Christ and noting that Satan will be cast out of Mount Zion and they would be allowed to oppose each other for a period of time, during which time Satan would bruise Christ in the heal by causing his death as a human, but Christ would crush the head of Satan, which is a fatal blow, when he casts Satan into the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign.


    Now this is just background of why some have the interpretation that "the woman and her seed" represents Satan and his/her angelic followers. But having noted that, even Christian artwork frequently represents Satan as being a female, half woman and half snake. Thus the concept that Satan plays a feminine role persists in esoteric pagan and Christian tradition. Thus if we asked where did the concept that Satan was a snake and a woman come from, you can point to the Bible. Satan is depicted as both a woman and a snake in the Bible.




  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Israel Finkelstein is hot. I would totally let him excavate my site.
  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Lorenzo, what specific evidence can you cite showing the Biblical claims regarding Solomon to be true?

    You appear to be starting from a position of "true unless proven false", from an apologist position. You've gotten how evidence works exactly backwards. Unless you've provided me a reason to believe in a dirt man and rib lady getting dietary advice from a talking snake, you've got all your work ahead of you.

    Also, props to whoever I stole that line from :)

  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII
    Crazyguy6 hours agoYour giving the writings in the bible way to much credibility. Your saying in that the Noah story written roughly 500 bc is more accurate then the two or three that came a thousand years or more before it which would put these stories closer to Noah. So Noah tells his story to his offspring they get it wrong for a thousand years or more then all of a sudden at about 500 bc a Jewish writer gets is right somehow. Yet these same Jewish writers state that god created the vegetation before the Sun and made several more discrepancies in the creation story. And lets not forget how imposable the Noah's story is with millions of different animals and insects etc on a 450-500 foot boat for a year where one would need to store up over 500 tons of food just for the elephants alone.
    I need to go smoke a joint or something so I can get on your wave length or something before we can continue with this conversation.

    Let me just say in passing, that your reading of the scriptures is not the same as mine, so I can't address your reaction to your reading, only your reaction to my reading. Case in point, the Bible clearly says "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That means the Earth and Sun had already been created. The earth clearly was already in existence but was simply dark and formless.

    So when God said, "let there be light" its in the context of light being brought to the surface of the earth. That is, my interpretation is that Jehovah chose the planet earth, then chose the Sun and then brought the Earth in proximity to this particular sun to create light on the surface. So your idea that vegetation was created before the Sun was is not my reading. I believe you're legitimately overwhelmed by what you see as extreme contradictions to reality, but others of us interpret the specifics differently and so don't have the issues you do. Not that you are not entitled to those issues. It's just that interpretation sometimes makes all the difference in the world.

    But I acknowledge that the way you interpret the reading, I understand your objections, but the way I read and interpret it, I don't have those objections.

    This boils down to your wondering how I come to a different response or conclusion than you do, and that lies in the fact that I don't interpret the reading the same as you. All I can offer is to share how I'm interpreting it, while acknowledging that's my personal choice, while respecting your interpretation.

    So critically, the "six days of CREATION" are clearly a misconception. The Earth and the Sun and universe were not created in just six days, 7000 years each. A better term would be the "Six Days of CONVERSION," that is, converting a dark, formless and watery planet into the beautiful bioshpere we now experience. To do that, it needed heat and light. So God moved it closer to the Sun. Same with the rest of the solar system. I interpret the creation of the other planets are not being created during those six days of 42,000 years, but already have been in existence someplace in the universe and God bringing those planets together to ASSEMBLE the solar system. Even our Moon was already out there some place long before God put it into the Earth's orbit.

    That's why the Bible itself has no problem with the Earth being as old as it needs to be. The planet itself is very old. It is only life on this planet that is relatively new.

    So understanding the Bible or at least considering various interpretations of the Bible rather than just our own helps us understand why some of us still find it easy to accept the Bible as a book of truth. But others misread the Bible and invent things the Bible doesn't say and then find fault with their own errors.

    So one reason why people don't see "eye to eye" is because we're not interpreting the Bible the same way. You're responding to your personal interpretation and I'm responding to mind. If they are different, then we will have different reactions.

    The "Six Days of CREATION" should be renamed the "Six Days of CONVERSION," which is a more accurate reflection of what actually happened in those six days to an earth that was already billions of years old.

    For sure, the Bible is not a book that can be casually read. You have to pay attention to specifics.

  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII
    Viviane3 hours agoIsrael Finkelstein is hot. I would totally let him excavate my site.

    ROFL! I can't believe you said that. But you know, I think he must be aware of it. He must get that a lot. He is rather pretty, isn't he? Now that you mentioned it.

    But look up a photo of his co-author, Neil Asher Silberman. Tell me what you think. There is some video of both of them on YouTube also.

    Thanks for giving me my laugh for the day!!!

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot
    LorenzoSmithXVII, where does Asherah fit into all of this?
  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII
    Viviane3 hours agoLorenzo, what specific evidence can you cite showing the Biblical claims regarding Solomon to be true?
    You appear to be starting from a position of "true unless proven false", from an apologist position. You've gotten how evidence works exactly backwards. Unless you've provided me a reason to believe in a dirt man and rib lady getting dietary advice from a talking snake, you've got all your work ahead of you.
    Also, props to whoever I stole that line from :smile:

    Aha. Ummm... I can't confirm by archaeology the snake story other than to note it is unproven but also undismissible. But archaeological references from the time of the Exodus down through the end of the Persian Period is it's own separate field. That is, the archaeology available that we have compared to the Bible.

    But yes, first of all, in the context of Bible history, we do first presume the story is true and it remains true until proven otherwise. That's the biblical historical position. It doesn't have to your position though. But it does make an academic difference. Take for instance the fall of Jericho. The evidence is treated differently if you presume the miracle is true vs. if you lack proof of the miracle or you are waiting to confirm the miracle first, which cannot be confirmed.

    This is the fundamental mistake or difference archaeologists make in assessing evidence. For instance, an archaeologist will see walls toppled. The Bible says it was by the hand of God and a miracle. The archaeologist, lacking proof of any miracle, will presume it was an earthquake, then when presume after the walls were toppled by an earthquake, it inspired the religious fable of how God did it. But that's not their option. They have no proof the walls were not toppled by a miracle of God. But I acknowledge the different approaches.

    So the way I basically handle evidence is to put it into one of three categories. 1) Something that confirms an event specifically. 2) Something not is "inconclusive" which neither disproves nor confirms, and 3) Something that would be seen as a contradiction to the historical reference.

    Let's do Solomon, for instance.

    Okay, the Bible says Solomon built at Gezer, Hazor and Megiddo, specifically. 1 Kings 9:15 "Now this is the account of the forced labor which King Solomon levied to build the house of the LORD, his own house, the Millo, the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer."


    Archaeologist found very similar six-chambered gates at all three places and quickly link them to Solomon, such as here:


    Solomonic Gates at Gezer, Megiddo and Hazor

    So what am I suppose to do now? This is either confirmatory or inconclusive, but it doesn't contradict this passage.

    Is there anything else that would suggest Solomon built these gates rather someone else? That question deals with chronology. We have two references linking Solomon to these gates. One is the fall of Jericho by the Israelites per the claim of Dame Kathleen Kenyon who dates that event to between 1350-1325 BCE. That means the Exodus occurred between 1390-1365 BCE, 40 years earlier. The Exodus occurs 480 years prior to the 4th of Solomon. So the early dating for Solomon's 4th year would fall in 910 BCE, giving us the early range date for Solomon between 914-874 BCE. Those buildings per archaeologists are dated to the "early 9th Century BC" (900-867 BCE). So again, there is no conflict. The buildings are dated to the correct time period based on the fall of Jericho, meaning based on the dating for the fall of Jericho, per the Bible, Solomon would have been ruling at the time these buildings were built.

    So whether this is a "confirmation" or not, nothing here contradicts Solomon building these buildings, particularly in these locations. So the upside is the Bible historian is very glad that, indeed, there is some archaeological evidence supporting Solomon building at these particular sites. It's wonderful. The same king built at these three sites at the same time and at a time when the kingdom was at the level of full statehood. So, I'm ready to move on now.

    In the meantime though, since this is also a JW discussion board, JWs date Solomon's rule from 1017- 977 BCE. Based on that dating, they date Solomon's 4th year to 1013 BCE, and the Exodus 480 years earlier to 1513 BCE (1013 + 480 = 1513 BCE). So from the standpoint of a Jehovah's Witness, the archaeological dating of those "Solomonic" structures was built by someone else. OR, they presume the archaeology is defective. At any rate, the archaeological dating does not support and even contradicts Solomon's connection to these structures during the period of 1017-977 BCE. Further the fall of LBA Jericho between 1350-1325 BCE also contradicts an Exodus dated as early as 1513 BCE.

    In other words, as long as you date Solomon's rule to the early 9th Century which corresponds with the fall of Jericho between 1350-1325 BCE by Joshua, then the Bible is completely confirmed by archaeology. But if you don't date the fall of Jericho and Solomon to those dates, then you have contradiction.

    But this is a full circle. Archaeology confirms Solomon must have built those buildings, but only if you date Solomon to the right period and the fall of Jericho to the right period. Why archaeologists are not following the archaeology at this point is another issue. But this is ALL we need from the archaeologists. We just needed to know when they dated the fall of Jericho so we could date the Exodus and when Solomon built those buildings. We need absolutely nothing else from archaeology. Timeline issues are a chronology issue, outside the area of expertise for archaeologists.

    But having noted that archaeologists volunteer to be "historians" even though their base claim is that they are NOT historians, they come under criticism because of their choices while ignoring history. Case in point, the pharaoh of the Exodus. The pharaoh of the Exodus was never lost. The pharaoh of the Exodus per historians as late as the 8th Century AD was none other than "Amenophis," that is, Amenhotep III. That's an independent reference for who the pharaoh of the Exodus was. When that reference is compared to the dating of the Exodus based on the fall of Jericho between 1350-1325 BCE, the Exodus would have occurred during the reign of Amenhotep III!!!

    So again, the historical reference for who was ruling at the time of the Exodus does not contradict the archaeology, but instead, is confirmed by the archaeology! The fall of Jericho points to Amenhotep III as the pharaoh of the Exodus. Note how this checks out on Biblical detail. The pharaoh that died in the Red Sea was a pharaoh that began his rule after Moses left Egypt for 40 years. So the question is whether or not Amenhotep III ruled less than 40 years? Answer: Yes. So there is no contradiction here.

    What about the impact of the "alleged" 10 plagues. What do we know about the next pharaoh? Well, the next pharaoh, who was Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) decided the gods of Egypt were "worthless" and he became a monotheist. Ooops! You mean a "monotheist" like the Israelites? Yep! So that alone confirms the Exodus happened at the beginning of his reign, in perfect harmony with the historical reference of the pharaoh of the Exodus.

    But you see, good-for-little lying Biblical archaeologists want people to believe who the pharaoh of the Exodus was is up for grabs. But that is not really the case. The archaeology AND history tell us precisely who the pharaoh of the Exodus is. The pharaoh that died in the Red Sea was Amenhotep III and the pharaoh who followed him became a monotheist after the 10 plagues.

    But that is not the story these archaeologists are telling. They don't want you to link the sudden monotheism of Akhenaten to the Exodus. Why? Who cares? For some reason!!!

    So Israel Finkelstein is an amazing archaeologist. His second greatest talent is probably being a nude model for "PlayGirl" since you think he is so cute. But as a Biblical historian, he sucks!

    The historical pharaoh of the Exodus was always Amenhotep III, and now that is confirmed by arachaeology and he can't figure that out? Please!

    See where this is going? The historians claim the pharoah of the Exodus has always been Amenhotep III. Now archaeology from Jericho confirms that. Where else can be go from here. The next pharaoh decided to suddenly become a monotheist? And yet Israel Finkelstein can't figure out when the Exodus happened?

    Plus he's going to come out with a book and claim David and Solomon were "myths"? Plus he is going to go a step further and talk about Christian doctrines and that Jesus must be a myth too if Solomon is a myth, all based on this incompetence?

    So yes, he's a great archaeologist, and yes, I can see he is very handsome, but as a Bible historian he is as phony as three-dollar bill. That's my personal opinion. You want to criticize my position? You'll lose. But bring it on.





  • LorenzoSmithXVII
    LorenzoSmithXVII
    Village Idiotan hour agoLorenzoSmithXVII, where does Asherah fit into all of this?

    Asherah is just another version of the Mother Goddess whom embodies the heavenly identity of Satan as the wife of Michael the archangel.

    But Asherah is special because of "The Mysteries" related to Satanism. The goddess is represented in a lot of different ways, different concepts. Asherah often was represented as a vagina, basically. It's the same design for many Catholic churches. The long ailway leading to the altar. They would create the concept or recognize it in nature as a ravine, for instance. Sycamore trees would be used to create a narrow lane leading to the altar at the end so that the worshippers felt they were having sex with the goddess by entering her vagina. So that's why references to the goddess was a reference to trees being destroyed, or to "groves." Artificial groves were created to create the concept of the birth canal, which worshippers would enter symbolizing having sex with the goddess. There was a lot of sexuality linked to "The Mysteries." Sex with the goddess was linked to a heightened spiritual experience.

    But also there was persistent context of a marriage between the goddess and Baal and I've heard even some references to a marriage between Yahweh and Asherah. So the distorted concepts of the goddess still showed her to be married.

    The goddess, btw, was also represented by a TOWER, which is the symbolism of the WTS. The goddess was also associated like in Eden with the provider of knowledge, particularly occult, secret knowledge. All referencing Satan's role in Eden.

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