Undisfellowshipped,
are you.. er... sure of this one?
*** The Watchtower Reprints, July 1879, Pages 8-9 ***
"A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God."
"Theocratic Warfare" LYING IS GOOD!
by UnDisfellowshipped 30 Replies latest jw friends
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blondie
hurt, I wondered too, then I thought, "If something is true, is it true because of the individual who said it or because of the facts that support it?"
Blondie
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ozziepost
My God! Those people were looney, weren't they! How on earth could they have been selected as the true bride of Christ and the F&DS by an inspecting Lord Jesus and placed over all His earthly interests??????
Yet the numbers still increase!! Incredible!! (Ozzie shaking his head)
Cheers, Ozzie
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Scully
Francois writes:
Show me the scripture in which Jesus deliberately makes a deceitful statement; where he engages in "Spiritual Warfare." I want to know where it is.
Luke 22:66-70
At length when it became day, the assembly of older men of the people, both chief priests and scribes, gathered together, and they haled him into their San'he.drin hall, saying: "If you are the Christ, tell us." But he said to them: "Even if I told you, you would not believe it at all. However, from now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God." At this they all said: "Are you, therefore, the Son of God?" He said to them: "You yourselves are saying that I am."
Luke 23:3
Now Pilate asked him the question: "Are you the king of the Jews?" In answer to him he said: "You yourself are saying [it]."
Both of these scriptures are, in fact, used by JWs to justify "Theocratic War Strategy". Jesus apparently knew that these people were "not entitled to the truth" and did not answer the direct questions that both the priests and scribes, and later Pontius Pilate, asked of him.
I guess it's kind of like Jesus pleading the Fifth.... He didn't say "No" because it would have been an outright lie, and he couldn't really say "Yes" without incriminating himself of the charges of blasphemy.
Love, Scully
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hurt
Blondie: hurt, I wondered too, then I thought, "If something is true, is it true because of the individual who said it or because of the facts that support it?"
Well, the WTS, or whatever it was called at the time, must have meant to pay more attention to reason, according to that statement, if they meant it. Of course, it makes sense. Why discount something simply beacuse of its source? But I meant to confrm form Undisfelloeshipped that he got the reference right. I haven't checked. If that's out of the Reprints and not out of context, then the WTS is certainly more than a century back in progressive thinking.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Hurt said:
But I meant to confirm from Undisfellowshipped that he got the reference right. I haven't checked. If that's out of the Reprints and not out of context, then the WTS is certainly more than a century back in progressive thinking.
I got that Quote from this Website: http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/dicwtdocs/truth.html
I am not sure what the context of that Quote was.
I just did a search on Google and found out the original reference Issue:
Zion's Watch Tower, July 1879 Issue, Pages 8-9.
I just found another Web Page with information on this Quote, here is the Link: http://www.gospeldefense.org/quotedisp.php3?id=338
Also, I just found some of the context of that Quote!
Here it is:
Zion's Watch Tower, July 1879 Issue, Pages 8-9:
"A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.... Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts."
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UnDisfellowshipped
Blondie said:
I thought, "If something is true, is it true because of the individual who said it or because of the facts that support it?"
Hurt said:
Well, the WTS, or whatever it was called at the time, must have meant to pay more attention to reason, according to that statement, if they meant it. Of course, it makes sense. Why discount something simply beacuse of its source?
Well, check out this Scripture:
John 8:44 (Jesus speaking): You are of your father, the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Do you think Satan would tell someone the truth?
If he did tell someone the truth, it would probably be a half-truth, or it would be taken out of context in order to deceive.
But that Watchtower Quote explains a lot.
It shows who the Watchtower has been getting "the truth" from ever since they started.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Scully said:
Luke 22:66-70
At length when it became day, the assembly of older men of the people, both chief priests and scribes, gathered together, and they haled him into their San'he.drin hall, saying: "If you are the Christ, tell us." But he said to them: "Even if I told you, you would not believe it at all. However, from now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God." At this they all said: "Are you, therefore, the Son of God?" He said to them: "You yourselves are saying that I am."Luke 23:3
Now Pilate asked him the question: "Are you the king of the Jews?" In answer to him he said: "You yourself are saying [it]."Both of these scriptures are, in fact, used by JWs to justify "Theocratic War Strategy". Jesus apparently knew that these people were "not entitled to the truth" and did not answer the direct questions that both the priests and scribes, and later Pontius Pilate, asked of him.
I guess it's kind of like Jesus pleading the Fifth.... He didn't say "No" because it would have been an outright lie, and he couldn't really say "Yes" without incriminating himself of the charges of blasphemy.
Well, you are correct, the Watchtower does use those Verses to support their "Theocratic Warfare" Policy.
I checked out some different sources, and found out that the phrase "You yourself are saying it" means "What you are saying is correct".
Also, the Watchtower intentionally does not check out Mark's Gospel account of when Jesus was before the High Priest, which says:
Mark 14:61: But He stayed quiet, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
Mark 14:62: Jesus said, "I am. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky."
Mark 14:63: The high priest tore his clothes, and said, "What further need have we of witnesses?
Mark 14:64: You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?" They all condemned Him to be worthy of death. -
hurt
Undisfellowshipped,
if memory does not fail me, the bible has recorded Satan to say something true. The account of mortal man's fall for example. Does that quote by Jesus, that there is no truth in the devil, imply that the devil may never speak the truth? I think not. The bible presents the devil as an intelligent schemer. If he's that intelligent then he would know it's expedient to speak the truth sometimes. Was it not Paul that wrote that he keeps transforming himself into an angel of light? It could have been Jesus who also said that. To be a good lair, he must not have predictable tactics. And he was wiser than Daniel, not so?
Really, the text of Jesus' words need not factor in what one may want to use that Watchtower quote for. The contradiction lies not in what other bible writers have written about the devil, truth and falsehood. The scandal is in the admission by Watchtower that even the devil could be an agent of truth. That admission has far reaching implications. Insofar as we agree that something may not always be false simply because of their source, then then the devil may be a source of what is true; it has been repeatedly said that discounting information solely beacuse of their source is a clear mark of irrationality.
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UnDisfellowshipped
I just found another "Theocratic Warfare" Watchtower Quote:
The Watchtower August 15th 2001 Issue:
"Have Faith Like That of Abraham"
4. Sarai could say that she was Abram's sister because she really was his half sister. (Genesis 20:12) Furthermore, he was not under obligation to divulge information to people who were not entitled to it. (Matthew 7:6) Faithful servants of God in modern times heed the Bible's command to be honest. (Hebrews 13:18) They would never, for instance, lie under oath in a court of law. When the physical or spiritual lives of their brothers are at stake, such as in times of persecution or civil distress, however, they heed Jesus' counsel to be "cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves." -Matthew 10:16; see The Watchtower, November 1, 1996, page 18, paragraph 19.