Carbon-14 Dating

by Amazing 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • VM44
    VM44

    The original post of this thread was in March, so I am a bit late here.

    Searching the 1995 WT Library CD for the words "carbon" and "dating"
    resulted in the following:

    *** w52 11/1 644 Efforts to Undermine the Bible ***

    *** g71 4/8 31 Watching the World ***
    Radioactive Dating Unreliable

    *** g72 4/8 5-11 The Radiocarbon Clock Gets a Checkup ***
    The Radiocarbon Clock Gets a Checkup

    *** g72 4/8 11-12 Radiocarbon Dates Linked to Tree Rings ***
    Radiocarbon Dates Linked to Tree Rings

    *** w76 5/1 267 Insight on the News ***
    Highly Inaccurate

    *** g81 11/22 14-15 How Old Are the Fossils? ***

    *** g86 9/22 21-6 The Radiocarbon Clock ***
    The Radiocarbon Clock

    *** g90 2/8 11 What Happened to the Dinosaurs? ***

    *** g90 12/22 28 Watching the World ***
    Watching the World
    INACCURATE DATING

    The "g81 11/22 14-15 How Old Are the Fossils?" citation might
    be what you where thinking of. Here is the carbon dating material
    from that article.

    *** g81 11/22 14-15 How Old Are the Fossils? ***
    RADIOCARBON DATING. The radiocarbon clock, based on a half-life of carbon 14 of 5,500 years, is much more useful for measuring ages in the span of man's history on earth. In this case we are not using a radioactive element that has been here ever since creation. With such a short life, the radiocarbon would have all disappeared ages ago. But this isotope is being formed continually by the rain of cosmic rays upon the earth's atmosphere.
    All living things have carbon in their every body part, and while they are living they have the same proportion of carbon 14 as the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. When they cease to live and are buried and cut off from the atmosphere, the carbon 14 gradually decays and disappears. So if an old piece of wood or charcoal is exhumed, one can measure the proportion of carbon 14 remaining and tell how long ago it was part of a living tree.
    Again, that is the theory. In practice, there are many things that can cause false readings. One thing that can easily spoil a sample is possible contamination with other materials that might contain carbon either older or younger.
    The most serious question, especially about very old specimens, is whether the radiocarbon was in the same proportion in the atmosphere in ancient times as it is today. There is no way to be sure of this, because it depends upon cosmic ray showers, which are notably variable and sporadic. If, for instance, for some reason during mankind's earliest history, the cosmic rays averaged only half the intensity they have today, any sample from that era would appear to be 5,500 years older than it really is.
    Since we have no way of knowing how intense cosmic rays were in past ages, we are wise to accept carbon-14 dates only for the period for which the clock has been calibrated with historical materials, back to about 3,500 years ago. Older than that, they may be increasingly inaccurate.

  • Jason
    Jason

    How the Carbon Clock Works

    Carbon has unique properties that are essential for life on earth. Familiar to us as the black substance in charred wood, as diamonds, and the graphite in "lead" pencils, carbon comes in several forms, or isotopes. One rare form has atoms that are 14 times as heavy as hydrogen atoms: carbon-14, or 14C, or radiocarbon.

    Carbon-14 is made when cosmic rays knock neutrons out of atomic nuclei in the upper atmosphere. These displaced neutrons, now moving fast, hit ordinary nitrogen (14N) at lower altitudes, converting it into 14C. Unlike common carbon (12C), 14C is unstable and slowly decays, changing it back to nitrogen and releasing energy. This instability makes it radioactive.

    Ordinary carbon (12C)is found in the carbon dioxide (CO2) in the air, which is taken up by plants, which in turn are eaten by animals. So a bone, or a leaf or a tree, or even a piece of wooden furniture, contains carbon. When the 14C has been formed, like ordinary carbon (12C), it combines with oxygen to give carbon dioxide (14CO2), and so it also gets cycled through the cells of plants and animals.

    We can take a sample of air, count how many 12C atoms there are for every 14C atom, and calculate the 14C/12C ratio. Because 14C is so well mixed up with 12C, we expect to find that this ratio is the same if we sample a leaf from a tree, or a part of your body.

    In living things, although 14C atoms are constantly changing back to 14N, they are still exchanging carbon with their surroundings, so the mixture remains about the same as in the atmosphere. However, as soon as a plant or animal dies, the 14C atoms which decay are no longer replaced, so the amount of 14C in that once-living thing decreases as time goes on. In other words, the 14C/12C ratio gets smaller. So, we have a "clock" which starts ticking the moment something dies.

    Obviously, this works only for things which were once living. It cannot be used to date volcanic rocks, for example.

    The rate of decay of 14C is such that half of an amount will convert back to 14N in 5,730 years (plus or minus 40 years). This is the "half-life." So, in two half-lives, or 11,460 years, only one-quarter of that in living organisms at present, then it has a theoretical age of 11,460 years. Anything over about 50,000 years old, should theoretically have no detectable 14C left. That is why radiocarbon dating cannot give millions of years. In fact, if a sample contains 14C, it is good evidence that it is not millions of years old.

    However, things are not quite so simple. First, plants discriminate against carbon dioxide containing 14C. That is, they take up less than would be expected and so they test older than they really are. Furthermore, different types of plants discriminate differently. This also has to be corrected for.[2]

    Second, the ratio of 14C/12C in the atmosphere has not been constant -- for example, it was higher before the industrial era when the massive burning of fossil fuels released a lot of carbon dioxide that was depleted in 14C. This would make things which died at that time appear older in terms of carbon dating. Then there was a rise in 14CO2 with the advent of atmospheric testing of atomic bombs in the 1950s.[3] This would make things carbon-dated from that time appear younger than their true age.

    Measurement of 14C in historically dated objects (e.g., seeds in the graves of historically dated tombs) enables the level of 14C in the atmosphere at that time to be estimated, and so partial calibration of the "clock" is possible. Accordingly, carbon dating carefully applied to items from historical times can be useful. However, even with such historical calibration, archaeologists do not regard 14C dates as absolute because of frequent anomalies. They rely more on dating methods that link into historical records.

    Outside the range of recorded history, calibration of the 14C "clock is not possible.[4]

    Other Factors Affecting Carbon Dating

    The amount of cosmic rays penetrating the earth's atmosphere affects the amount of 14C produced and therefore dating the system. The amount of cosmic rays reaching the earth varies with the sun's activity, and with the earth's passage through magnetic clouds as the solar system travels around the Milky Way galaxy.

    The strength of the earth's magnetic field affects the amount of cosmic rays entering the atmosphere. A stronger magnetic field deflects more cosmic rays away from the earth. Overall, the energy of the earth's magnetic field has been decreasing,[5] so more 14C is being produced now than in the past. This will make old things look older than they really are.

    Also, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total 12C in the biosphere (including the atmosphere -- plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total 14C is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more 12C, 14C is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the 14C/12C ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now.

    Unless this effect (which is additional to the magnetic field issue just discussed) were corrected for, carbon dating of fossils formed in the flood would give ages much older than the true ages.

    Creationist researchers have suggested that dates of 35,000 - 45,000 years should be re-calibrated to the biblical date of the flood.[6] Such a re-calibration makes sense of anomalous data from carbon dating -- for example, very discordant "dates" for different parts of a frozen musk ox carcass from Alaska and an inordinately slow rate of accumulation of ground sloth dung pellets in the older layers of a cave where the layers were carbon dated.[7]

    Also, volcanoes emit much CO2 depleted in 14C. Since the flood was accompanied by much volcanism (see Noah's Flood..., How did animals get from the Ark to isolated places?, and What About Continental Drift?), fossils formed in the early post-flood period would give radiocarbon ages older than they really are.

    In summary, the carbon-14 method, when corrected for the effects of the flood, can give useful results, but needs to be applied carefully. It does not give dates of millions of years and when corrected properly fits well with the biblical flood.

    Other Radiometric Dating Methods

    There are various other radiometric dating methods used today to give ages of millions or billions of years for rocks. These techniques, unlike carbon dating, mostly use the relative concentrations of parent and daughter products in radioactive decay chains. For example, potassium-40 decays to argon-40; uranium-238 decays to lead-206 via other elements like radium; uranium-235 decays to lead-207; rubidium-87 decays to strontium-87; etc. These techniques are applied to igneous rocks, and are normally seen as giving the time since solidification.

    The isotope concentrations can be measured very accurately, but isotope concentrations are not dates. To derive ages from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:

    The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there).
    Decay rates have always been constant.

    Systems were closed or isolated so that no parent or daughter isotopes were lost or added.

    There Are Patterns in the Isotope Data
    There is plenty of evidence that the radioisotope dating systems are not the infallible techniques many think, and that they are not measuring millions of years. However, there are still patterns to be explained. For example, deeper rocks often tend to give older "ages." Creationists agree that the deeper rocks are generally older, but not by millions of years. Geologist John Woodmorappe, in his devastating critique of radioactive dating,[8] points out that there are other large-scale trends in the rocks that have nothing to do with radioactive decay.

    "Bad" Dates

    When a "date" differs from that expected, researchers readily invent excuses for rejecting the result. The common application of such posterior reasoning shows that radiometric dating has serious problems. Woodmorappe cites hundreds of examples of excuses used to explain "bad" dates.[9]

    For example, researchers applied posterior reasoning to the dating of Australopithecus ramidus fossils.[10] Most samples of basalt closest to the fossil-bearing strata give dates of about 23 Ma (Mega annum, million years) by the argon-argon method. The authors decided that was "too old," according to their beliefs about the place of the fossils in the evolutionary grand scheme of things. So they looked at some basalt further removed from the fossils and selected 17 of 26 samples to get an acceptable maximum age of 4.4 Ma. The other nine samples again gave much older dates but the authors decided they must be contaminated and discarded them. That is how radiometric dating works. It is very much driven by the existing long-age world view that pervades academia today.

    A similar story surrounds the dating of the primate skull known as KNM-ER 1470.[11] This started with an initial 212 to 230 Ma, which, according to the fossils, was considered way off the mark (humans "weren't around then"). Various other attempts were made to date the volcanic rocks in the area. Over the years an age of 2.9 Ma was settled upon because of the agreement between several different published studies (although the studies involved selection of "good" from "bad" results, just like Australopithecus ramidus, above).

    However, preconceived notions about human evolution could not cope with a skull like 1470 being "that old." A study of pig fossils in Africa readily convinced most anthropologists that the 1470 skull was much younger. After this was widely accepted, further studies of the rocks brought the radiometric age down to about 1.9 Ma -- again several studies "confirmed" this date. Such is the dating game.

    Are we suggesting that evolutionists are conspiring to massage the data to get what they want? No, not generally. It is simply that all observations must fit the prevailing paradigm. The paradigm, or belief system, of molecules-to-man evolution over eons of time, is so strongly entrenched it is not questioned -- it is a "fact." So every observation must fit this paradigm. Unconsciously, the researchers, who are supposedly "objective scientists" in the eyes of the public, select the observations to fit the basic belief system.

    We must remember that the past is not open to the normal processes of experimental science, that is, repeatable experiments in the present. A scientist cannot do experiments on events that happened in the past. Scientists do not measure the age of rocks, they measure isotope concentrations, and theses can be measured extremely accurately. However, the "age" is calculated using assumptions about the past that cannot be proven.

    We should remember God's admonition to Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" (Job 38:4).

    Those involved with unrecorded history gather information in the present and construct stories about the past. The level of proof demanded for such stories seems to be much less than for studies in the empirical sciences, such as physics, chemistry, molecular biology, physiology, etc.

    Williams, an expert in the environmental fate of radioactive elements, identified 17 flaws in the isotope dating reported in just three widely respected seminal papers that supposedly established the age of the earth at 4.6 billion years.[12] John Woodmorappe has produced an incisive critique of these dating methods.[13] He exposes hundreds of myths that have grown up around the techniques. He shows that the few "good" dates left after the "bad" dates are filtered out could easily be explained as fortunate coincidences.

    What Date Would You Like?

    The forms issued by radioisotope laboratories for submission with samples to be dated commonly ask how old the sample is expected to be. Why? If the techniques were absolutely objective and reliable, such information would not be necessary. Presumably, the laboratories know that anomalous dates are common, so they need some check on whether they have obtained a "good" date.

    Testing Radiometric Dating Methods

    If the long-age dating techniques were really objective means of finding the ages of rocks, they should work in situations where we know the age. Furthermore, different techniques should consistently agree with one another.

    Methods Should Work Reliably on Things of Known Age

    There are many examples where the dating methods give "dates" that are wrong for rocks of known age. One example is K-Ar "dating" of five historical andesite lava flows from Mount Nguaruhoe in New Zealand. Although one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975, the "dates" range from less than 0.27 to 3.5 Ma.[14]

    Again, using hindsight, it is argued that "excess" argon from the magma (molten rock) was retained in the rock when it solidified. The secular scientific literature lists many examples of excess argon causing dates of millions of years in rocks of known historical age.[15] This excess appears to have come from the upper mantle, below the earth's crust. This is consistent with a young world -- the argon has had too little time to escape.[16] If excess argon can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age?

    Other techniques, such as the use of isochrons,[17] make different assumptions about starting conditions, but there is a growing recognition that such "foolproof" techniques can also give "bad" dates. So data are again selected according to what the researcher already believes about the age of the rock.

    Geologist Dr. Steve Austin sampled basalt from the base of the Grand Canyon strata and from the lava that spilled over the edge of the canyon. By evolutionary reckoning, the latter should be a billion years younger than the basalt from the bottom. Standard laboratories analyzed the isotopes. The rubidium-strontium isochron technique suggested that the recent lava flow was 270 Ma older than the basalts beneath the Grand Canyon -- an impossibility.

    Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree

    If the dating methods are an objective and reliable means of determining ages, they should agree. If a chemist were measuring the sugar content of blood, all valid methods for the determination would give the same answer (within the limits of experimental error). However, with radiometric dating, the different techniques often give quite different results.

    In the study of the Grand Canyon rocks by Austin, different techniques gave different results.[18] Again, all sorts of reasons can be suggested for the "bad" dates, but this is again posterior reasoning. Techniques that give results that can be dismissed just because they don't agree with what we already believe cannot be considered objective.

    In Australia, some wood found the Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was "dated" by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was "dated" by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old![19]

    Isotope ratios or uraninite crystals from the Koongarra uranium body in the Northern Territory of Australia gave lead-lead isochron ages of 841 Ma, plus or minus 140 Ma.[20] This contrasts with an age of 1550-1650 Ma based on other isotope ratios,[21] and ages of 275, 61, 0,0,and 0 Ma for thorium/lead (232Th/208Pb) ratios in five uraninite grains. The latter figures are significant because thorium-derived dates should be the more reliable, since thorium is less mobile than the uranium minerals that are the parents of the lead isotopes in lead-lead system.[22] The "zero" ages in this case are consistent with the Bible.

    More Evidence Something is Wrong --
    14C in Fossils Supposedly Millions of Years Old

    Carbon Dating in many cases seriously embarrasses evolutionists by giving ages that are much younger than those expected from their model of early history. A specimen older than 50,000 years should have too little 14C to measure.

    Laboratories that measure 14C would like a source of organic material with zero 14C to use as a blank to check that their lab procedures do not add 14C. Coal is an obvious candidate because the youngest coal is supposed to be millions of years old, and most of it is supposed to be tens or hundreds of millions of years old. Such old coal should be devoid of 14C. It isn't. No source of coal has been found that completely lacks 14C.

    Fossil wood found in "Upper Permian" rock that is supposedly 250 Ma old still contained 14C.[23] Recently, a sample of wood found in rock classified as "middle Triassic," supposedly some 230 million years old, gave a 14C date of 33,720 years, plus or minus 430 years.[24] The accompanying checks showed that the 14C date was not due to contamination and that the "date" was valid, within the standard (long ages) understanding of this dating system.

    It is an unsolved mystery to evolutionists as to why coal has 14C in it,[25], or wood supposedly millions of years old still has 14C present, but it makes perfect sense in a creationist world view.

    Many Physical Evidences Contradict the "Billions of Years"

    Of the methods that have been used to estimate the age of the earth, 90 percent point to an age far less than the billions of years asserted by evolutionists. A few of them follow.

    Evidence for a rapid formation of geological strata, as in the biblical flood. Some of the evidences are: lack of erosion between rock layers supposedly separated in age by many millions of years; lack of disturbance of rock strata by biological activity (worms, roots, etc.); lack of soil layers; polystrate fossils (which traverse several rock layers vertically -- these could not have stood vertically for eons of time while they slowly got buried); thick layers of "rock" bent without fracturing, indicating that the rock was all soft when bent; and more. For more, see books by geologists Morris[26] and Austin.[27]

    Red blood cells and hemoglobin have been found in some (unfossilized!) dinosaur bone. But these could not last more than a few thousand years -- certainly not the 65 Ma since the last dinosaurs lived, according to evolutionists.[28]

    The earth's magnetic field has been decaying so fast that it looks like it is less than 10,000 years old. Rapid reversals during the flood year and fluctuations shortly after would have caused the field energy to drop even faster.[29]

    Radioactive decay releases helium into the atmosphere, but not much is escaping. The total amount in the atmosphere is 1/2000th of that expected if the universe is really billions of years old. This helium originally escaped from rocks. This happens quite fast, yet so much helium is still in some rocks that it has not had time to escape -- certainly not billions of years.[30]

    A supernova is an explosion of a massive star -- the explosion is so bright that it briefly outshines the rest of the galaxy. The supernova remnants (SNRs) should keep expanding for hundreds of thousands of years, according to physical equations. Yet there are no very old, widely expanded (Stage 3) SNRs, and few moderately old (Stage 1) ones in our galaxy, the Milky Way, or in its satellite galaxies, the Magellanic Clouds. This is just what we would expect for "young" galaxies that have not existed long enough for wide expansion.[31]

    The moon is slowly receding for the earth at about 4 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year, and this rate would have been greater in the past. But even if the moon had started receding from being in contact with the earth, it would have taken only 1.37 billion years to reach its present distance from the earth. This gives a maximum age of the moon, not the actual age. This is far too young for evolutionists who claim the moon is 4.6 billion years old. It is also much younger than the radiometric "dates" assigned to moon rocks.[32]
    Salt is entering the sea much faster than it is escaping. The sea is not nearly salty enough for this to have been happening for billions of years. Even granting generous assumptions to evolutionists, the sea could not be more than 62 Ma years old -- far younger than the billions of years believed by the evolutionists. Again, this indicates a maximum age, not the actual age.[33]
    Dr. Russell Humphreys gives other processes inconsistent with billions of years in the pamphlet Evidence for a Young World.[34]
    Creationists cannot prove the age of the earth using a particular scientific method, any more than evolutionists can. They realize that all science is tentative because we do not have all the data, especially when dealing with the past. This is true of both creationist and evolutionist scientific arguments -- evolutionists have had to abandon many "proofs" for evolution just as creationists have also had to modify their arguments. The atheistic evolutionist W.B. Provine admitted: "Most of what I learned of the field [evolutionary biology] in graduate (1964-68) school is either wrong or significantly changed."[35]

    Creationists understand the limitations of dating methods better than evolutionists who claim that they can use processes observed in the present to "prove" that the earth is billions of years old. In reality, all dating methods, including those that point to a young earth, rely on unprovable assumptions.

    Creationists ultimately date the earth historically using the chronology of the Bible. This is because they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history, which bears the evidence within it that it is the Word of God, and therefore totally reliable and error-free.

    Then What Do the Radiometric "Dates" Mean?

    What the do the radiometric dates of millions of years mean, if they are not true ages? To answer this question, it is necessary to scrutinize further the experimental results from the various dating techniques, the interpretations made on the basis of the results and the assumptions underlying those interpretations.

    The isochron dating technique was thought to be infallible because it supposedly covered the assumptions about starting conditions and closed systems.

    Geologist Dr. Andrew Snelling worked on "dating the Koongarra uranium deposits in the Northern Territory of Australia, primarily using the uranium-thorium-lead (U-Th-Pb) method. He found that even highly weathered soil samples from the area, which are definitely not closed systems, gave apparently valid "isochron" lines with "ages" of up to 1,445 Ma.

    Such "false isochrons" are so common that a whole terminology has grown up to describe them, such as apparent isochron, mantle isochron, pseudoisochron, secondary isochron, inherited isochron, erupted isochron, mixing line and mixing isochron. Zheng wrote:

    Some of the basic assumptions of the conventional Rb-Sr [rubidium-strontium] isochron method have to be modified and an observed isochron does not certainly define valid age information for a geological system, even if a goodness of fit of the experimental results is obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr. This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions can also arise in applying Sm-Nd [samarium-neodymium] and U-Pb [uranium-lead] isochron methods.[37]

    Clearly, there are factors other than age responsible for the straight lines obtained from graphing isotope ratios. Again, the only way to know if an isochron is "good" is by comparing the result with what is already believed.

    Another currently popular dating method is the uranium-lead concordia technique. This effectively combines the two uranium-lead decay series into one diagram. Results that lie on the concordia curve have the same age according to the two lead series and are called "concordant." However, the results from zircons (a type of gemstone), for example, generally lie off the concordia curve -- they are discordant. Numerous models, or stories, have been developed to explain such data.[38] However, such exercises in story-telling can hardly be considered as objective science that proves an old earth. Again, the stories are evaluated according to their own success in agreeing with the existing long ages belief system.

    Andrew Snelling has suggested that fractionation (sorting) of elements in the molten state in the earth's mantle could be a significant factor in explaining the ratios of isotope concentrations which are interpreted as ages.

    As long ago as 1966, Nobel Prize nominee Melvin Cook, professor of metallurgy at the University of Utah, pointed out evidence that lead isotope ratios, for example, may involve alteration by important factors other than radioactive decay.[39] Cook noted that, in ores from the Katanga mine, for example, there was an abundance of lead-208, a stable isotope, but no Thorium-232 as a source for lead-208. Thorium has a long half-life (decays very slowly) and is not easily moved out of the rock, so if the lead-208 came from thorium decay, some thorium should still be there. The concentrations of lead-206, lead-207, and lead-208 suggest that the lead-208 came about by neutron capture conversion of lead-206 to lead-207 to lead-208. When the isotope concentrations are adjusted for such conversions, the ages calculated are reduced from some 600 Ma to recent. Other ore bodies seemed to show similar evidence. Cook recognized that the current understanding of nuclear physics did not seem to allow for such a conversion under normal conditions, but he presents evidence that such did happen, and even suggests how it could happen.

    Anomalies in Deep Rock Crystals

    Physicist Dr. Robert Gentry has pointed out that the amount of helium and lead in zircons from deep bores is not consistent with an evolutionary age of 1,500 Ma for the granite rocks in which they are found.[40] The amount of lead may be consistent with current rates of decay over millions of years, but it would have diffused out of the crystals in that time.

    Furthermore, the amount of helium in zircons from hot rock is also much more consistent with a young earth (helium derives from the decay of radioactive elements).

    The lead and helium results suggest that rates of radioactive decay may have been much higher in the recent past. Humphreys has suggested that this may have occurred during creation week and the flood. This would make things look much older than they really are when current rates of decay are applied to dating. Whatever caused such elevated rates of decay may also have been responsible for the lead isotope conversions claimed by Cook (above).

    Orphan Radiohalos

    Decaying radioactive particles in solid rock cause spherical zones of damage to the surrounding crystal structure. A speck of radioactive element such as Uranium-238, for example, will leave a sphere of discoloration of characteristically different radius for each element it produces in its decay chain to lead-206.[41] Viewed in cross-section with a microscope, these spheres appear as rings called radiohalos. Dr. Gentry has researched radiohalos for many years, and published his results in leading scientific journals.[42]

    Some of the intermediate decay products -- such as the polonium isotopes -- have very short half-lives (they decay quickly). For example, 218Po has a half-life of just 3 minutes. Curiously, rings formed by polonium decay are often found embedded in crystals without the parent uranium halos. Now the polonium has to get into the rock before the rock solidifies, but it cannot derive a from a uranium speck in the solid rock, otherwise there would be a uranium halo. Either the polonium was created (primordial, not derived from uranium), or there have been radical changes in decay rates in the past.

    Gentry has addressed all attempts to criticize his work.[43] There have been many attempts, because the orphan halos speak of conditions in the past, either at creation or after, perhaps even during the flood, which do not fit with the uniformitarian view of the past, which is the basis of the radiometric dating systems. Whatever process was responsible for the halos could be a key also to understanding radiometric dating.[44]

  • Patriot
    Patriot

    Hey Amazing, pretty interesting your breakdown.
    You know I,ve always wondered about that. If the ACTUAL carbon dates of old bones,fossils,etc. are older than the WTS suggest, then Does that make me an Athiest for not going along with the "man is only 6,000 years old" idea?

    What would you say to explain the Creation version of events but yet not discarding the carbon dating system?

    Are there gaps in history that the Bible and other ancient books don't cover?

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Patriot: WOW! You really dug back into JWD history to find this post. Btw: The poster, Jason, just ahead of you, really posted some exhaustive information about C14. Quite interesting.

    PS: At first glance it appeared that Jason had done a good job in his development of C14 discussion. I scanned his initial comments and they appeared okay. Upon closer examination, especially when Jason got into the Flood, I knew that he was spouting off young earth creationists propaganda. It was disappointing.

    You noted,

    "If the ACTUAL carbon dates of old bones, fossils, etc. are older than the WTS suggest, then does that make me an Athiest for not going along with the "man is only 6,000 years old" idea?"

    No, that does not make you an atheist. It just means that humans and humanoids have been here longer than the WTS speculates using Bible chronology in assigning Adam as the first human.

    You asked,

    "What would you say to explain the Creation version of events but yet not discarding the carbon dating system? Are there gaps in history that the Bible and other ancient books don't cover?"

    Your second question almost answers the first.

    One possible explanation I have been discussing in a private email is that God used evolution as one of his creative tools. When humanoid ancestors reached some stage of development fitting within God's plans, then he may have either caused them to become sentient or self-aware in ways that are different than animals, thus 'breathing into them the breath of life and they became living souls' - kind of turning the Biblical language into an allegory.

    Another possibility is that if our existence is also made of 'spirit' then perhaps 'breathing the breath of life' into Adam may be when God infused humans with spirits or souls. This second concept is what many Catholic and Protestants believe.

    Yet another possibility is that the whole creation account surrounding Adam and Eve was mere allegory to teach a point about God's relationship with humans, and that our real development is just that ... a point where we emerge in some evolutionary scheme to become the dominate species with advanced brains and self-awareness.

    Who really knows? But, the evidence that humans and humanoid ancesters have been here hundreds or thousands and millions of years is very strong, and cannot be dismissed by attempting to beat it down with narrow Biblical interpretations.

    I like your quote, "All men must die ... few ever really live." So very true of many. - Amazing

  • larc
    larc

    Jason,

    If you are cutting and pasting other people's work you should cite the person's work. Whether or not you are cutting and pasting, you should list the references and page numbers.

  • Francois
    Francois

    I think the article you're looking for about Carbon-14 dating was actually contained in the old version of "Did Man Get Here By Evolution or Creation?" or the predecessor book. This would have been the version used by the society somewhere before 1972. I remember that booklet like it was yesterday. It was a 64-page book about five by seven inches and I remember objecting to it because it set up a crippled straw man for itself and then knocked it over. This straw man was made up of out-dated science, especially as it related to Carbon-14 dating, and to old, out of date palentology. It was shameless, totally shameless.

    Hope this helps.

    Francois

    Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

  • Jason
    Jason

    larc,

    I was cutting and pasting. I cut and pasted the whole thing. I didn't even put my name on it. If you want the references you'll find them at www.answeringenesis.org, the site I stole my post from. There's nothing wrong with posting another view on something. It isn't even the WTs view. Creation science and JW creation "science" aren't even the same thing.

    Jason.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Jason: The way your in-depth post reads above, it appears that you wrote that and agree with the statements. You recent post to Larc states that you copied the material from a Creationist site. That is fine and I appreciate the clarification. The question is, what are your views? Do you support the Creation-Science views that you cut and pasted to your post?

    Your last comment to larc stated,

    "Creation science and JW creation "science" aren't even the same thing."

    You are somewhat correct in that the those who develop creation science do far more work than the Watch Tower Society. The Society will borrow from these sources, but they also use their own conjecture and very questionable sources, misquotes, etc. AlanF pointed out to me that the Society used a work of a known science fiction writer for the Creaton-Evolution book, a source that was intended strictly for science fiction. I was shocked by what he found because I had not done a careful job in checking Watch Tower references.

    Setting aside JW style creation-science, the problem with mainline creation-science is that much of what they state is not good science, but rather unproven plausibilities at best, and often unscientific babble at worst. They are an embarassment to average Christians, and do more harm than good, because they drive many further away from Christianity.

    The example is the Flood of Noah. First, a global flood could not and did not happen, unless God acted to hide evidence so as to fool us. God might perform a miracle, but he would not stoop to the level of lies to make geological evidence say something that was untrue. Modern geological findings prove that a worldwide flood did not happen.

    Also, even if a worldwide flood would have happened, it would not have greatly altared the level of C-14 in humans who died in the flood. The event was too short in geological time to have caused that much of a change.

    The human body is what regulates the C-14 ratios to C-12 inside itself. If the levels of C-14 or C-12 go up or down in the atmosphere or in the food chain, the human body will bring this into balance. So, even where C-14 calibration has been adjusted to account for a brief period of above ground nuclear fallout from the 1940s through the 1960s, the adjustments have not made that much of a difference.

    Finally, other methods, such as potassium-argon, unranium isotops are used for those dates that exceed 60,000 years, after C-14 is too low to measure. These other methods are also used to cross-verify dating where C-14 has been used. The date ranges can be quite large, but taking the most conservative approach, they still prove that humans have been here far longer than Bible chronology suggests.

    Amazing

  • logical
    logical

    Aaaarrrgh

    Too many long boring posts

    Oooh theres an alien with 3 eyes in this cartoon

  • VM44
    VM44

    Hi Amazing,

    What is the "science-fiction" reference the Watchtower used in
    the creation-evolution book?

    --VM44

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