JW "policy" .vs. Personal conscience

ItsJustlittleoldme

I've been trying to show my JW friend that the organization has 'policies' that one must follow.. He keeps telling me the standard line, it's your personal conscience...

For instance, in the no blood "policy", he argues that it is his conscience choice, he isn't 'told' he cannot take policy, it's his bible-based <gag> conscience that keeps him from taking blood..

Then I retort what would happen if they get new light on that issue, does that mean that his conscience get's new light also?

-- No answer --

No matter how hard I try, however, he will NOT admit that he is 'following' corporate policy..

So, by accident, I was searching the 1999 CD, and low and behold, look what I found:

Please note the stuff I highlighted in RED!!!! Wonder how he's gonna try and weasel out of that one, from his own literature?

*** g99 2/22 30 From Our Readers *** FromOurReaders

EndofPoverty Thank you so much for the June 8, 1998, Awake! series The End of Poverty Nears. It really put things in perspective and made me aware of my own complaining attitude. I am unemployed and have little spare money. I thought I was in poverty. Hardly! This article shows that there are others worse off than I am. I should be grateful for what I already havefood, clothing, good health and, most important, Jehovah. I so much look forward to the end of poverty. My resolve is to keep seeking Jehovahs Kingdom and to stop complaining.

C. W., New Zealand

Celibacy For some years I have been a reader of your magazines. I have to protest your one-sided reporting about the doctrines of the Catholic Church in the article The Bibles Viewpoint: Is Celibacy a Requirement for Christian Ministers? (June 8, 1998) There is no enforced celibacy in the Catholic Church! There is only a voluntarily chosen celibacy that is a prerequisite for a certain profession. Whoever claims that he was forced into celibacy is lying.

R. G., Germany

We believe that there is an important distinction between the phrase enforced celibacy and the notion that people are forced into celibacy. If, for example, a corporation establishes a dress code and hires only those who agree to adhere to it but fires those who violate it, then it could be said that the corporation has an enforced dress code. In a similar sense, it is fair to say that there is enforced celibacy in the Catholic priesthood. Our article, however, mainly points out the lack of a Scriptural basis for making celibacy a prerequisite for Christian ministers. (1 Timothy 3:2) Rather than criticizing those who choose singleness as a life course, the article noted that this has proved to be a rewarding and spiritually satisfying way of life for some.ED.

Edited by - itsjustlittleoldme on 10 September 2002 23:0:6

minimus

Ask him if he would read the Bible without a Wt. publication....ONLY the Bible. Then have him read a scripture about birthdays. Would ANYONE get the idea that birthdays are forbidden for Christians from reading just the Bible? NO! But if you read a Wt., then and only then ,would you get the idea that celebrating birthdays is wrong for a Christian.Even if he says his "personal conscience" dictates that he couldn't celebrate a birthday, he would have to admit that this was because of his knowledge of Wt. publications, not from the Bible, because the Bible doesn't condemn it.Why not..... .Change this conversation to Personal conscience vs. Wt. publications? Most people couldn't understand that the WT. has any policies.

TheOldHippie

Very correct, minimus. You could come up with a couple of more areas:

Blood; it was easier before, when blood was blood and the Bible indeed says we are to abstain from it. But then articles began to appear, in which blood suddenlt no more was blood, but was separated into various parts, of which some mysteriously had seized to be blood whereas others continued to be blood and therefore you could pump some of these fractions int your vessels whereas others still had to be abstained form etc. My personal conscience would have had to make U-turns twice a year to keep pace.

Military service, where your personal conscience sent you to jail or work camps for years because your personal concience denied you the carrying out of civil substitutes such as working in hospitals etc., but then suddenly your personal conscience made a U-turn and told you it was all right to work in a hospital and please forgetabout the 8 years in a solitary prison cell and the wife who had left you when you were released and the kids who knew you no more and the parents who had died meanwhile, because your personal conscience says it was a very good way of showing your trust in God and so you must not feel sorry or regret it or be angry.

Stafford deals with these questions in a very good way in his "Three Dissertations" as does a CESNUR article recently published.

jst2laws

itsjustlittleoldme,

who agree to adhere to it but fires those who violate it, then it could be said that the corporation has an enforced dress code

You have found a good quote that some may not pick up on. The key is "fires those who violate it", that is the "code".

The blood policy of Jehovahs Witnesses is not a matter of conscience but a matter of "code".

Matters of conscience allow for a broad range of choices from one person to another, according to their personal perception of the issues and principles involved. Paul discussed the issue at length in 1 Cor. 8 and 10 and Romans 14. A dominating point Paul makes is to stop judging others in matters of conscience.

However, when an institution establishes a code in a area of conscience and imposes sanctions on those who do not comply (or "fires those who violate it"), that compliance is no longer a matter of conscience. When any individual is JUDGED or CONDEMNED for violating a principle it is no longer a principle but is a law. People are judged according to law. In matters of conscience Paul and James say stop judging.

A person who violates a detail of the complicated blood policy of Jehovahs Witnesses, whether DFd or DAd, has been condemned for his choice. He has been judged.

So your friend is right that the blood policy is a matter of conscience, why do the witnesses not obey the scriptures and stop judging?

Jst2laws

ItsJustlittleoldme

Minimus,

Thanks for the suggestion.. I think I will try that with him.. I've been trying for a while now to get him to understand that yeah, his 'personal conscience' if free to make a choice:

The choice he is presented with is to choose to do things the WT way or to become an enemy of Jehovah... But, of couse, that is his choice :-)

It all comes back to, THE WT ISN'T JEHOVAH!!!!!!

Thanks again, great idea!!!

ItsJustlittleoldme

OldHippie,

Thanks.. I've been trying to show him that his 'personal' conscience is 'tossed about like the winds'.. These are more examples I can bring to him to show this point..

Thanks again

ItsJustlittleoldme

Jst2laws,

I couldn't agree with you more... His personal conscience is one of you can CHOOSE to follow god or you can CHOOSE to be an enemy of god...

That is all..

Thanks for the comments, I'll figure our a way to express them to him!!!!

ozziepost

THE WT ISN'T JEHOVAH!

But they DO believe that Jehovah is the WTS.

ItsJustlittleoldme

Yep Ozzie,

And there inlies the problem, as they say...

Everyone I've talked to said that the first step for them out of their bondage as a WT slave was to realize that the organization is NOT god on earth..

Once that falls, everything else crumbles around it... I've never been a JW, so I do not know, but do you agree with that?

JT

OLd hipppie

while i many times don;'t agree with your position, the 2 examples you have given drive home the point very well-

in fact i too have often agreed that when the wt position was NO BLOOD AT ALL IN ANY SHAPE OR FASHION - at least one had to admit that the bible does say abstain from blood, now while the interpetation is up for argument, at least the bible does say NO BLOOD, but like you stated when they got into the Approved list and the Dfing List of blood components THEY LOSE ME

i recall a bro who was on the HLC and he along with 2 other elders were meeting with 4 drs at this hospital- one was like the Director, and the others were like specialist in thier field - so as he told me here we were (for lack of a better phrase Chesse Cracker Men) plain guys explaining to these dr the various components of blood- he said and i quote "We looked foolish"

evidently one of the drs knew something about jw for the Dr dropped a bomb on the 3 of them-

he got up walked over to his library and took out a King James bible and asked the bro to show them were they came UP WITH THE LIST FROM THE BIBLE-

well you know the rest-he said at that point he went home told his it was time to rethink the blood position over how sad so many have to die before they change it

JW "policy" .vs. Personal conscience

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