by UnDisfellowshipped 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sure,
I have a few I'd like to mention:
Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:21
That's all I have, anyone else?
RevMalk Speaks - You cannot DF All of the people all of the time, BUT, you can DF most of the people some of the time.Saratoga Springs, NY Congregation Refugee
Augustine said:
The belief that Judas left Jesus and the other 11 disciples before the institution of the new covenant has been the "traditional" interpretation by most Church Fathers (and conservative commentators). The following is one modern example by a conservative, Evangelical scholar:"21. 'But look! The hand of the man who is betraying me is with me on the table.' That in all probablility what is here recorded took place before the institution of the Lord's Supper is confirmed by the following facts:
a. In the somewhat more chronologically arranged Synoptics...b. In John's parallel report concerning the exposure of the traitor, Jesus leaves the upper room immediately after Jesus told him, "What you are doing, do it faster' (John 13:21-30)..." (William Hendriksen, "The Gospel of Luke", p. 964)
Aug
Thank You for your informative Post Aug!
I believe the Watchtower may actually have this one correct.
clash_city_rockers said:
On the issue of salvation UD, you should do a study of the WT vs the Book of Romans, well lets make it the whole bible.Well the WT tower does not have an infusion of grace theology like Rome, they do contend that the grace of God alone is insufficient to save.
You will see that the first nine chapters of Romans goes directly against WT soteriology (doctrine of salvation)..
You see the WT is an eclectic mix of Arianism, Socinianism, Arminianism, 19th Centery revivalism, 19th Centery Adventist movement, Sentementalism of Romantism, and a slight mix of dispensationalism (20th Centery evangellical error)
go here http://www.xworld.org/DR/
this posting was sponcered by John Murry
part of the equal time campain,
jr
Thanks for your Post jr!
You are most definitely correct, the Watchtower teaches that you are saved because of YOUR OWN WORKS, and they completely destroy the wonderful love of God, because they say that God's Grace and belief in Christ's Sacrifice is not enough to save you.
All the way throughout the entire New Testament (especially Romans and Galatians), you can see that WORKS will not save anyone!
pateaton said:
Hi Shelly, about Jesus as Michael, as Michael he was more powerful.Strange as it may sound, Jesus the man had no power at all. All the mighty works were done by the spirit of Jehovah within him. This is explained in John 5.19. and John 3.34.
-Pat.
Thanks for your Post Pat!
Also, Thanks for bringing that out. Now it makes even less sense for Jesus to have been Michael, because in Heaven as Michael, Jesus would have had MORE POWER AND AUTHORITY to rebuke Satan than while on Earth!
Also, in the Book of Daniel, it says that Michael was only ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES IN HEAVEN (I am pretty sure that the ONLY-BEGOTTEN UNIQUE SON OF GOD would not have been called "One of the Chief Princes").
RevMalk said:
I have a few I'd like to mention:Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:21
That's all I have, anyone else?
LOL, you are RIGHT ON RevMalk, you said it all! The Society has corrupted or changed the meaning of just about each Scripture in the Bible -- all the good Prophecies apply to themselves, and all the bad Propechies apply to Christendom. They changed just about all Scriptures that said Jesus was God. They added words, took away words, even from the Book of Revelation (Adding the word "Jehovah" and taking away the words "The Lord").
It would take HUGE BOOKS to show all of the Contradictions between the Watchtower and the Bible.
But if anyone has any others, go ahead and Post them here.
Also, Thanks for bringing that out. Now it makes even less sense for Jesus to have been Michael, because in Heaven as Michael, Jesus would have had MORE POWER AND AUTHORITY to rebuke Satan than while on Earth!
Also if Jesus was Michael that would Michael the creator of all things including Satan. The Creator not having the authority to rebuke the creation makes no sense.
Jude is quoting the Book of Enoch which lists other Archangels making Michael one of others like himself. Which is true as Michael is the patron angel of Israel the same as the patron angel of Persia in the Book of Daniel. If you notice in Daniel, (Michael one of the chief Princes) he uses the Hebrew word "Sar" .. whereas Daniel uses the Hebrew word "Nagid" for Messiah the Prince. Why would he do that? To show the difference. Messiah is more then just ruler over Israel .. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
BugParadise, Thanks for your Great Post!
Below is a Comparison of our Lord Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel:
God The Father says that Jesus Christ is much better than angels and God The Father also says that He never told ANY angel that he would be His unique Only-Begotten Son!
The Father calls Jesus GOD, whose Throne will NEVER END! The Father also commands all of His angels to WORSHIP Jesus Christ! - ALL THIS IN ONLY ONE CHAPTER OF THE HOLY BIBLE -- HEBREWS CHAPTER 1!
Michael the Archangel in Heaven does not have the authority to rebuke Satan:
Jesus Christ, while on Earth rebuked Satan at least 3 times, and he rebuked the demons numerous times because He had full authority over them all:
Matthew 17:18: Jesus rebuked him, the demon went out of him, and the boy was cured from that hour.
Luke 10:16: Whoever listens to you listens to Me, and whoever rejects you rejects Me. Whoever rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
Luke 10:17: The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your Name!"
Luke 10:18: He said to them, "I saw Satan having fallen like lightning from Heaven.
Luke 10:19: Behold, I give you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions (demons), and over all the power of the Enemy (Satan). Nothing will in any way hurt you.
Luke 10:20: Nevertheless, don't rejoice in this, that the spirits (demons) are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven."
Matthew 8:16: When evening came, they brought to Him many possessed with demons. He cast out the spirits with a Word, and healed all who were sick
Mark 9:25: When Jesus saw that a multitude came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit (demon), saying to him, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again!"
Mark 9:26: Having cried out, and convulsed greatly, it came out of him. The boy became like one dead; so much that most of them said, "He is dead."
Mark 9:27: But Jesus took him by the hand, and raised him up; and he arose.
Below are ALL of the Scriptures in the ENTIRE BIBLE that mention Michael the Archangel.
Do you see anywhere where it says that Christ is Michael?
Daniel 10:21: But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the Writing of Truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Michael your Prince."
Daniel 12:1: "At that time shall Michael stand up, the Great Prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the Book.
1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
Jude 1:9: But Michael, the Archangel, when contending with the Devil and arguing about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"
Revelation 12:7: There was war in the sky. Michael and his angels made war on the Dragon. The Dragon and his angels made war.
Revelation 12:8: They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in Heaven.
Revelation 12:9: The Great Dragon was thrown down, the Old Serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, the Deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the Earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Revelation 12:10: I heard a loud voice in Heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ; for the Accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
HOLY ANGELS ALWAYS REFUSE WORSHIP!
Revelation 19:10: I fell down before his feet to worship him. He said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy."
Revelation 22:8: Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
Revelation 22:9: He said to me, "See you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the Prophets, and with those who keep the Words of this Book. Worship God."
Psalm 89:6: For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh? Who among the sons of the heavenly beings is like Yahweh,
Psalm 89:7: A very awesome God in the council of the holy ones, To be feared above all those who are around Him?
JESUS CHRIST NEVER REFUSED WORSHIP!
UnDisfellowshipped: The Father calls Jesus GOD, whose Throne will NEVER END! The Father also commands all of His angels to WORSHIP Jesus Christ! - ALL THIS IN ONLY ONE CHAPTER OF THE HOLY BIBLE -- HEBREWS CHAPTER 1!
Excellent verses! Here is something I thought you might find interesting as well in reference to Hebrews 1
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?
Hebrews 1:5
The reference is not to entrance into life, but to entrance to an OFFICE. The Messianic reference is to the Son's resurrection (Acts 13:3), and to the declaration of the Father with reference to the character of the Son as Son of God, this declaration being substantiated by the resurrection of the Son (Romans 1:4). But the writer (Paul) reminds his readers that such statements were NEVER made of angels. The second quotation in the verse comes from 2 Samuel 7:14. This again is reference to Solomon ('type') and the final reference to the Son ('reality'). Solomon's Kingdom was not established but divided, whereas the Son's Kingdom will be Eternal. Solomon built a temple for God but the Son will build the Millennial Temple. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (Zech:6:12,13) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Heb 1:5b) This is applied directly to the Lord Jesus, This was never said of angels. They were sons of God by creation. The Messiah of the Book of Hebrews is Son of God by eternal generation, Son of God in his incarnation, and Son of God in an official relationship as Messiah consequent upon His resurrection. The Son is therefore better then the angels. He has inherited a better name than they. (notice the term used here is "better" signifying nature/essence) ** In the OT "son" is applied to the angels collectively NEVER individually. In Psalms 2:7 "Son of mine thou art" The word "Son" is in the emphatic position. Sources:Dr Kenneth Wuest Word Studies in the Greek New Testament Vol II pp 44,45
The Expositor's Greek New Testament (A.S. Peake)
Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, by J.H. Moulton and George Milligan
Thank You Very Much BugParadise for you Fantastic Information!!!
Also, here is another thing that the Watchtower Society has done, which REALLY changes A LOT of Scriptures!
In the New Testament, they have INSERTED the Name Jehovah in certain Verses, but not others.
The Society chose to replace the Greek word "Ku'rios" (which is translated as "Lord" in most Verses) with the Word Jehovah in the Verses where the Society wanted people to think that the Father was being referred to.
Here is an example:
You notice that? The Society INSERTS "Jehovah" in Acts 1:24 to make it look like the Apostles were praying to the Father, when in actuality, I believe in this Verse, that they were praying to Jesus Christ.
Also, why didn't they translate the Greek word "Ku'rios" as "Jehovah" in Acts 1:21? Because it referred to Jesus, and the Society would NEVER apply the Name Jehovah to Christ!
Would you call the New World Translation a BIASED Translation? Naw, couldn't be, you say? Well it is definitely BIASED and SLANTED to REMOVE any Verse that talks about JESUS being GOD ALMIGHTY!
Now, if the Bible DOES NOT teach that Jesus is God, then WHY did the Watchtower Society need to CHANGE and ALTER several VERSES?
Also, in one of the Watchtower Issues, the Society stated that if you were to read the Bible on your own, without using the Society's Publications, you would believe in the TRINITY!
Here are some more examples of the New World Translation INSERTING the Word "Jehovah" where in the Greek, it says "Lord", and you will see how they CHANGE the Scriptures that refer to JESUS into referring to THE FATHER (Jehovah):
Acts 2:39: For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all who are far off, even as many as Jehovah (Ku'rios) our God will call to himself."
Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus, receive my Spirit!"
Acts 7:60: He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Jehovah (Ku'rios), don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 8:24: Simon answered, "Pray for me to Jehovah (Ku'rios), that none of the things which you have spoken happen to me."
Acts 8:25: They therefore, when they had testified and spoken the word of Jehovah (Ku'rios), returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.
Acts 8:26: But an angel of Jehovah (Ku'rios) spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise, and go toward the south to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert."
Acts 13:47: For so has Jehovah (Ku'rios) commanded us, saying, 'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, That you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
Acts 14:23: When they had appointed elders for them in every assembly, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to Jehovah (Ku'rios), on whom they had believed.
Acts 21:13: Then Paul answered, "What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus."
Acts 21:14: When he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, "Jehovah's (Ku'rios) will be done."
Romans 10:8: But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord (Ku'rios) is Lord (Ku'rios) of all, and is rich to all who call on him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the name of Jehovah (Ku'rios) will be saved."
Romans 14:8: For if we live, we live to Jehovah (Ku'rios). Or if we die, we die to Jehovah (Ku'rios). If therefore we live or die, we are Jehovah's (Ku'rios).
Romans 14:9: For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord (Ku'rios) of both the dead and the living.
Ephesians 5:19: speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; singing, and singing praises in your heart to Jehovah (Ku'rios);
Ephesians 5:20: giving thanks always concerning all things in the name of our Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus Christ, to God, even the Father;
Ephesians 5:21: subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ.
Ephesians 5:22: Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord (Ku'rios).
1st Thessalonians 4:15: For this we tell you by the word of Jehovah (Ku'rios), that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord (Ku'rios), will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord (Ku'rios) himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (Ku'rios) in the air. So we will be with the Lord (Ku'rios) forever.
1st Thessalonians 4:18: Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 1:7: Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says Jehovah (Ku'rios) God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 22:6: He said to me, "These words are faithful and true. Jehovah (Ku'rios) God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon."
Revelation 22:20: He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus.
Revelation 22:21: The grace of the Lord (Ku'rios) Jesus Christ be with all the saints. Amen.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 16 September 2002 0:12:39
Regarding Acts 1:24-26.
Since Jesus chose and hand picked his Apostles HIMSELF when on earth, surely he would STILL be the one choosing them from heaven when deciding who to fill Judas's place, right? I would think so.
Afterall, Father handed ALL AUTHORITY over to Christ. I would think ALL AUTHORITY means ALL AUTHORITY, including choosing the Apostles.
"Jehovah" is a defilement all by itself.
Even more so when it is put in a place where it ought not to be...In Jesus place.
The NWT is VERY inaccurate in regards to what is true in the Greek texts.
ALL AUTHORITY and ALL POWER = ALMIGHTY
Could that be what Father gave Jesus?? PERMISSION to be Almighty in His place? I believe that to be so.
Edited by - pomegranate on 16 September 2002 7:16:52
The trinity makes no sense."The Father gave Jesus permission to be Almighty in his place".
Pateaton, What I would suggest to you is that you read from a bible that wasnt translated by someone who had 2 years of experience in translating Greek scriptures, and was only self taught to translate Hebrew scripture, and translated a so called bible for only those of the jw faith.
Because your scripture proves absulutely NOTHING!!
shelley
Although I agree they've messed up the Bible, I also have to concede that it wasn't in too good a shape to begin with. The Bible is not pure people, whether it's the watchtower that changed it or Jerome, it's been changed! From the very beginning. If you don't believe this, then you can't believe the Watchtower changed it. If they can manage it anyone can, and if God chose to allow them to do it then he'd have allowed anyone to do it. The Vulgate is widely believed to be the worst translation ever in History (besides perhaps the NWT). And guess what? The KJV was heavily influenced by the Vulgate, just take a look at Jerome's horrible translation of Isaiah's words. So, I guess my point is, although you can't trust the Watchtower version, how can you trust any. You can only take it for what's it's worth. Is God's message still there? Absolutely, just don't look too closely otherwise you'll end up spending years arguing whether or not Jesus is God or not, and you know what? That's not the important thing, serving him, worshipping him and loving him is more important.
Again, for what it's worth, I don't personally believe that Jesus is God Almighty, I do however believe that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament. I believe that Jesus was the creator, I believe that he will return. I also hope that I'm not too busy arguing about who he is rather than knowing he's here when that time comes. The JW's can say all they want about the "Accurate Knowledge", and I will listen to them as soon as Christ is preaching from atop the mount of Bethel, Brooklyn NY.......until that time comes (I'm not holding my breath), then they're just a bunch of crooks trying to steal my eternal life and personal relationship with my savior away from me. So, no matter who Christ is, no matter if he's God Almighty, Jehovah the Creator or just the son of God, I know what he did for me, and I will never turn my back on him, and I KNOW he will never turn his on me.
LOL, you are RIGHT ON RevMalk, you said it all! The Society has corrupted or changed the meaning of just about each Scripture in the Bible -- all the good Prophecies apply to themselves, and all the bad Propechies apply to Christendom. They changed just about all Scriptures that said Jesus was God. They added words, took away words, even from the Book of Revelation (Adding the word "Jehovah" and taking away the words "The Lord").
Are you correct that the name of Jehovah was not intended to be in the New Testament? Absolutely, without a doubt. Why? Because Jehovah was walking the earth in the Human form of Jesus Christ. Was/is he God Almighty? No, not in my opinion. The Bible seems very clear on that, but also seems very clear that he was/is. So, through my own studies of the scripture and prayer, I believe that there's a compromise. Jehovah came to earth as Christ, can't even argue the point. The thing is, Jehovah himself is NOT God Almighty, and this is where all the confusion comes in. Is Jesus/Jehovah of a divine nature, not a created angel? Yes, absolutely, he is God the Father's Only Begotten, procreated, much different than any Angel in Heaven. Is he part of some kind of Trinity? Well, the Trinity is a funny term, everyone interprets it differently. I believe that Jesus/Jehovah has a divine power, along with the Holy Ghost, but God Almighty still containing much more power. So, on one hand there is a Godhead of sorts, acting as one, but all three still separate beings.
This is all based on my humble opinion, and my own studies of the scripture and prayer, as I've said. Does this mean I am correct and everyone else is wrong? No, of course not, pertaining to these things, we have a limited amount of knowledge, a limited capability of knowledge and a very limited amount of information to base those things on. The Bible has been adulterated, point blank, so the only thing we can do is believe what we believe, and worship the way we feel fit. Are the JW's wrong? In my opinion they are beyond wrong. Am I here to tell them they're wrong? Not until God tells me too (still not holding my breath). I certainly could not have it on my head if I caused one person to leave what they believe but God knows I am no Prophet, and I have no divine nature and I am not in a position to do so. And God forbid I caused someone to stray from their faith and they turned out to be right! Don't worry, I don't believe they are, but again, I am not God, and that is one of the few things you can base your faith on. We live in a world with all the information except what we need. So what do we do? Seek.
If God has his true Prophet on this earth today, what should we be doing? Seeking.
If God does not have his true Prophet on earth today, what should we be doing? Seeking.
That's it, that's all we can do. I listen to everyone and all, if they have the truth, I will find it. If they don't, it's sure to find me, haha. That's the trick in this life.....finding the truth, because it's not going to be handed to us on a silver platter.
I will be at the march on the 27th, please don't forget people!
RevMalk Speaks - You cannot DF All of the people all of the time, BUT, you can DF most of the people some of the time.
Saratoga Springs, NY Congregation Refugee
