A complex question who of you knows the answer?

by MARTINLEYSHON 41 Replies latest jw friends

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  hurt

  It's been said: even JWs do not teach that baptism washes away sins. More like baptism being a request to God for a clean conscience (of course, there are spins on that in the JW fashion). That the candidate got baptized is an indication that that request was granted. But we know this is not necessarily so, even according to JW tradition. A baptism may be nullified if the conditions for nullification are fulfilled. A person requesting a clean conscience may be involving in acts betraying a soul in search of a clean conscience. In the JW world, a disfeloowshipped person is in no position to request for a clean conscience until he is reinstated by a ciommittee of men. He is dead. Hiow can the dead seek forgiveness? Only those who have previously not fallen away from the way of the truth can correctly do that, and DF persons are not of that class. Ideally. But I have heard of someone who did just that: moved; attended meetings; studied again; got baptised; and 'progressed'; I don't know how it all turned out though. It is difficult to understand how the elders, chosen by and under the influence of the holy spirit, could have been deceived in this way...

  So, it could be done, but will still be interpreted as illegitimate by the JW community. He would have a status of being in 'good standing' until what had happened gets known. From then on, anything may happen. He may be forgiven if extunuating circumstances are cited, he may get punished for making the lie of God's princes, the elders...
• 

  rocky220

  IMHO.......JW is proven to be part of Babylon the Great, doctrine inconsistencies, etc.....not to mention all the unecessary pain and anguish WT has caused....why would you want to make the same mistake twice......IMHO.......rocky220
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  wednesday

  having been in the org since the 50's , i feel sure it has been done. I think it would be much harder to do it now with the increased ability to keep track of records etc. These stories used to be circulated i think to instill fear in peope-don't mess with jehovah-he will track u down and find u no matter were u go. Some may even be JW urban legands.I was baptised in 60's at a very tender age. Even then i knew it was a request for a good conscience. That was said over and over again in the talk preceding the dedication questions-that this does not wash away sins. wednesday

  Edited by - wednesday on 16 September 2002 9:13:15

  Edited by - wednesday on 16 September 2002 9:14:52

  Edited by - wednesday on 16 September 2002 9:16:39
• 

  NeonMadman

  our sins - past, present and future -

  Now this is cool even before sleeping with someone's mate this person's sins are ALREADY FORGIVEN- now i like a religion like this

  Of course, part of the transaction is a giving of one's life to God in obedience. We accept Jesus as both our Lord (i.e., our Master) and Savior. Some false Christians did advocate the view that God's grace provided an opportunity to sin with impunity, but Jude said their relationship with the Lord was not real:

  Jude 4: For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

  Paul tells us that when someone actually receives Christ, he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who begins to work from within to make the person more like Christ.

  Phillipians 2:12,13: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

  We are assured that, once this work has begun, God will complete it:

  Phillipians 1:4-6: In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

  So, no, God's forgiveness is not a ticket to sin. Anyone claiming to receive Jesus, whose life does not change, has not truly received Him. If we have truly received Jesus Christ, we will not stop sinning entirely, but we will also find our lives being molded in accordance with the example of Jesus Christ. And when we do sin, He is the one who intercedes on our behalf:

  1 John 2:1-6: My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
• 

  MikeMusto

  hi all,

  actually a more correct teacing of the WTS regarding baptism is that it is a public delclaration

  of didcating yourself to God..it has nothing to do with sin..becuase Jesus was baptized and was not sinful

  my 3 cents
• 

  Mathetes

  Gumby wrote:

  If Baptism washes away your sins, as taught by JWs....then why do they continually ask for the forgivness of their sins at the end of each prayer?????

  If once you accept Christ and your sin's are forgiven at that point......why does anyone claiming to be Christian continually seek forgivness?

  My Comments:

  When I was a JW I never believed that baptism washed away sins. Their prayers for forgiveness are supported by the Bible. For instance, in the 'model prayer' Jesus taught:

  "You, therefore, should pray thus- 'Our Father, who art in Heaven...forgive us our wrongdoings, as we have forgiven those who have wronged us'"

  I don't think the Bible is so confusing on this point. Jesus' ransom provides for forgiveness of sins, but as imperfect humans we still do sin. So in humility, we ask for forgiveness, knowing that God will grant it. I think 1 John 1:8-10 explains it well:

  "If we make the statement: "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we make the statement: "We have not sinned," we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us."

  As Christians, we have forgiveness of sins, but still need to recognise the fact that we still do sin. God's forgiveness is kind of like having money in the bank - its there, but you need to ask for it (withdraw it). This is assuming one hasn't committed the unforgivable sin.

  *******************************

  To Martin:

  I know of a story related to what you're asking about. Hopefully it will help. Someone I know got baptised a couple years ago, but lied in order to get baptised. She told the elders that she was living a morally clean life, when she was really not. Shortly after her baptism, her boyfriend called the elders and blew the whistle on her. They checked with Brooklyn, since they didn't know what to do with her, and were told to revoke her baptism. It was as if it hadn't happened, and she was back to her unbaptised status. So if a DF'd person got re-baptised and was found out, I think they would probably just revoke the baptism, and the person would go back to their DF'd status.
• 

  gumby

  Matheates.... Jesus' ransom provides for forgiveness of sins, but as imperfect humans we still do sin. So in humility, we ask for forgiveness, knowing that God will grant it.

  Please tell me how this makes sense?????

  Jesus forgives us.......but we still ask for forgivness
• 

  Mathetes

  Gumby,

  I don't know much about your background, aside from what I've read in this thread, but it appears that you do not believe in the Bible (please correct me if I am wrong here). I could emphasize that this is a Biblical teaching with points like Matt 6:12 all day long, but if you don't believe in the Bible, its all irrelevant to you.

  You mentioned in your previous post:

  Thats like your dad giving you a bike, then everyday after that you keep asking him for a bike.

  The way I see things, the need to receive forgiveness is an ongoing one, unlike a bike. If a person receives a bike as a gift, they have it to use for the rest of their lives (assuming it doesn't break, get stolen, etc). But a person who has been forgiven of their sins will sin again, because they are imperfect. So they ask for forgiveness of those new sins, and it is granted. I see it as an acknowledgement of error, and not ungratefully assuming things in my relationship with God.

  I'm going to use an analogy that is admittedly less than perfect, but hopefully it will help. Let's assume that you are a married man. You tell your wife to consider right now that you are apologizing and asking her forgiveness up front for any time you might upset her in the future. So from this point on, she just has to forgive you for anything you might do, even though you will give no further acknowledgement of any error you make, no expressions of regret for hurting her, no request to forgive you. I think this arrangement would wear thin pretty quickly and would have to change.

  Of course, God transcends the sometimes petty interactions between humans, but why would a Christian want to show any less consideration for His feelings than they would to their spouse?

  Mathetes
• 

  pomegranate

  Baptism = Death

  Rom 6:2-4
  We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
  Funny thing about water. You can't live within it, and you can't live without it.
  The very substance that life is dependant on, is also quite capable of ending life.

  That reality was not creatd by accident.
• 

  gumby

  Quote: I'm going to use an analogy that is admittedly less than perfect, but hopefully it will help. Let's assume that you are a married man. You tell your wife to consider right now that you are apologizing and asking her forgiveness up front for any time you might upset her in the future. So from this point on, she just has to forgive you for anything you might do, even though you will give no further acknowledgement of any error you make, no expressions of regret for hurting her, no request to forgive you. I think this arrangement would wear thin pretty quickly and would have to change.

  You are comparing a wife to Christ. A wife would appreciate being told you are sorry for erring on each occation, rather than a one time apology......she is Human....she needs to know.

  Do you think of God or Christ as someone who needs to be told you are sorry? You can tell God you are sorry.....but why ask for forgivness? Religious folk other than witnesses DO ask for forgivness.