Did Jehovah really order the excution of men, women, and children in the land of Canaan?

by John Aquila 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda
    The morality of conquest is actually not compatible with Judaism or its theology. What is written in the Tanakh (Hebrew Scriptures) is a legendary re-telling of our history.

    While I wish I could apologize to all who have been exposed to the idea that what you find in the Tanakh is literal history, the problem lies with the Christians and groups like the JWs who keep insisting that a book of truths requires that the book also be filled with facts. In reality humankind doesn't pass on its cherished truths through news reports and encyclopedic articles but through art, drama, and song. The same is true for the history of the Jews.

    Though Jews recognize their religious texts as inspired of G-d, they also acknowledge the fact that the record is the product of human hands with human frailties and limitations. To illustrate, both archeology and Jewish history admit that the Jews were largely polytheistic until the reign of King David. Up until then the worship of Abraham and Sarah's G-d YHWH had to compete with the varies tribal gods the Jews also worshipped until the Davidic dynasty settled in Jerusalem.

    But the Biblical text draws a picture of faithful followers of G-d being in the majority in Israel up to David's time, though nothing can be further from the truth. Our ancestors were much like their neighbors, given to the practices and superstitions of the people's around them. Where David became king, the archeological record in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas show a major change in worship, where David's G-d became the national Deity making all others due for the trash pile.

    This however got "remembered" in the lore of my people differently, as if YHWH was always the G-d worshipped. The previous animalistic conquests of the Jews were thus attributed to the G-d of Abraham and Sarah by the time the legendary revisions of history became holy writ, most after the return from Babylonian exile.

    Unlike Fundamentalist Christian religion which demands the Bible be a literal account, Jews view their Scriptures much like Americans view their historical legends. George Washington never chopped down a cherry tree as a child, but the myth keeps a vital truth alive about Amercian values. The log cabin on display meant to be the birthplace of Lincoln is actually not, but the legendary view of this famous president gets transmitted through the symbols preserved. The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere is just a poem, and the true details were very different. Even more recent events in American history are mythological, like the Great Depression being caused by a Stock Market crash or that the Space Race was merely the natural outcome of good old-fashioned American greatness--these are not facts. They are legends. But like movies, stage plays, musicals, and songs do, these stories transfer the truths and values of the American generations in clarity that sticks. Dry reports don't transmit values like legends do.

    People need to give up on the idea that the Bible is literal or that the Jews were lying by preserving their mythology. They weren't lying anymore than Americans are in how they transmit their historical accounts.

    The problem is that people blame the Bible accounts because of the failure of bad and misleading interpreters like the JWs. It is highly illogical to judge the texts of the Jews by the interpretation of Gentiles who hold the same Jews as incapable of understanding their own texts. You won't ever come to a dependable conclusion by judging a book by the interpretation of someone who refuses to discuss the same book with its authors.

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila

    CalebInFloroda

    Unlike Fundamentalist Christian religion which demands the Bible be a literal account, Jews view their Scriptures much like Americans view their historical legends.

    How do Jews view the book of JOB? What does it teach? I know it is not a literal account.

    It is highly illogical to judge the texts of the Jews by the interpretation of Gentiles who hold the same Jews as incapable of understanding their own texts

    LOL!

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    Of course he didnt. The bronze age desert god isnt real and therefore has never ordered a pizza let alone genocide.... However the bible says he did.

    More likely is that as a group of Semitic peoples formed a national idenity and created their lore it was included as a type of 'manifest destiny ' for themselves.

  • cofty
    cofty
    The moral question is not whether it ever happened - it didn't, but the fact that people like Fisherman are prepared to approve of infanticide because an ancient book says that god says it's a Good
  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    The book of Job is a poem that highlights the eternal search for answers. You are right: It's not a literal account like the JWs believe.

    For instance, I noted that people were debating on how the Tanakh seemed to contradict itself by having Satan the Devil in heaven having a conversation with G-d. This is not what Jews read from the text at all, especially from the original Hebrew. (Many Jews don't believe there is a person such as "Satan the Devil." Christianity on the other hand is obsessed with this creature.)

    In Job 1 and 2, G-d is discussing with the heavenly court the issue of Job's faithfulness. One member of the court plays the part of logic, asking opposing questions and setting up a test to help supply a valid answer to what has been raised. The term for this arguing person of logic in Hebrew is "ha satan," the "opposer." It isn't an evil spirit, however, just someone arguing a point to show that the Hebrew G-d is one who strives to come to conclusions fairly.

    When the protagonist Job finds himself in the middle of his test, he demands answers, the main one being: Why? And he wants to hear from none other than the Creator.

    But when G-d does finally speak to Job as requested, G-d offers no answers. G-d does, however, remind Job that G-d transcends our ability to fully comprehend our Creator. And then the account ends on a happy note.

    It's a lesson in life we all must learn. Life is full of mysteries. The existence of G-d does not equate full comprehension of G-d by G-d's creation. G-d transcends, cannot be defined, and sometimes we have to search for and even make up our answers to questions we have.

    Jews learn various lessons from this story (again not a literal tale). One is that Job doesn't do anything to make his life better. All he does is complain. That doesn't do him any good. G-d proves that Job's course has been one of folly, spending all his time wanting to know things that probably wouldn't matter in the end since Job is not a baby. He can do something to get out of his predicament, and obviously finally does because of the way the story ends.

    Another lesson is that suffering of itself doesn't disprove G-d's existence. This was a lesson many of us have had to learn again and again during the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust. The suffering of almost 2000 years ended with out being restored to our homeland after World War II and our recapturing Jerusalem in 1967. Like Job the situation of the Jews has turned around and G-d has not forsaken his people but is fulfilling what G-d has promised.

    Finally, Job is a book not of answers but of questions. Life is filled with them. Debates abound. Miracles are few. There is suffering, loss, and renewal. All of these things come to us many times and many ways. This is the stuff of life. Job teaches us that our journey through life will be marked with questions and all the other trials and rewards that came to Job. Sometimes we hear from G-d, and sometimes when we do we don't get the answers we were hoping for. The story is a legend, but its lessons are realistic. You can't have all the answers, but that is no reason to stop living.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Another lesson is that suffering of itself doesn't disprove G-d's existence

    It does prove that the god of christian theism doesn't exist.

    Why do you type "G-d"?

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    In Jewish culture the repeated use of something makes it mundane. Holy things are to be handled differently, otherwise they are just as mundane as any other object.

    Unlike the JWs who came to the wacky conclusion that the only name for G-d is the Tetragrammaton, we Jews have many names for the Creator. One of them is "God." But to use it often makes the name mundane. Pagans use the names of their gods over and over again, but not Jews. Jews do the opposite. We rarely utter our G-d's name.

    When writing it we leave out a letter or the vowels or something like that so that it can differentiate it from frequent use. It also helps in case the material upon which the name gets written is destroyed, so the chance of deliberately putting the name at risk of being handled like refuse is limited. It's just culture.

    The literal existence of G-d isn't necessary in Judaism as it is in Christianity. What is necessary is the goodness of G-d, and that can be brought about in the world by anyone, an atheist, an agnostic, a Gentile, and even a Jew. Another lesson for Jews from Job is to live life in the world as if G-d isn't going to help you and isn't there to help others. We might believe that G-d is, but that does no good if we aren't changing the world for the better. What good is belief and condemning others for disbelief when time can be better spent loving others for who they are instead of changing them and helping one another when there's need?

  • cofty
    cofty

    So would it make the slightest difference to your life or actions if you just ditched the concept of god?

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila

    CalebInFloroda

    Thanks for your explanation.

    How do the Jews feel about the prophecy in Daniel regarding the Messiah. Do they feel it will still be fulfilled in the future?

    (Daniel 9:24-26) . .

    There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.. . .

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    @cofty

    No. My status of a Jew is due to being a literal offspring of the Jewish people. There are many Jews who are secular (atheist), agnostic, some who make claim to Buddhism, etc.

    At the same time you can't disassociate the concept of the G-d of Abraham and Sarah from the Jewish people. We have been hated and persecuted due to our worship, our culture that has grown from such a belief. The Shoah (Holocaust), the Spanish Inquisition, even current anti-Semitism is centered on this concept of the G-d of the Jews, regardless if individual Jews believe in this Deity or not. We all got sent to the concentration camps, we all get expelled from Spain, we all got shot at on the eve of the Sabbath by that terrorist not so many weeks ago. People don't ask Jews if we personally believe in G-d to hate us.

    It's just like I tell some people: I believe Jesus of Nazareth was real. I believe he was a great teacher and the Gospels are based on some type of historical happenings (not that the stories within are always literal or precise). It matters not if he performed miracles or was resurrected after he died or ascended to heaven afterward. Should he come again as Christians expect him to in an amazing display of heavenly sights, I have no problem with telling him I don't believe he's the Messiah. None of those things are earmarks that the Jews have been waiting for in the Messiah or the Messianic Age. I have heard from some atheists who I know who have stated they would probably believe like Doubting Thomas if confronted with a miracle-wielding Jesus, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't because I'm a Jew, and my belief that Jesus is not the Messiah is not conditional.

    I'm a Jew regardless of what G-d turns out to be, whether I have the right concept of G-d or not. And G-d is real regardless if G-d is the stuff of legends or a transcendent Being because Jews are real. I am real. And for what it's worth, that is what makes G-d real.

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