FatalError: Thanks for the thread. Will check it out.
DJ: Yes. God is Kewl.
Willy: I guess they must be counting on Dubs not doing any homework?
Cygnus: Jesus was made king over all other kings, including Nebuchadenezzar. No problem here. Holy Spirit and Alpha and Omega? All are of God and holy. It is easier to understand the concept in your heart than it is to explain it to someone with logical reasoning as to why you understand it. Go figure. Perhaps that is the danger of being too involved with examining the veins and spots on the leaves of a tree rather than stepping back and examining the whole forest for what it is and the purpose behind it.
Trot, although I'm not too sure of who or what I believe in anymore, one thing I have never believed in is the trinity, long before getting sucked into the JWs. In fact, that was one of the main draws to me. I was even married to a Catholic for 12 years that tried her damndest to make me believe in it.
To tell the truth, I don't think whether we believe in or not to amount to a whole hill of beans. I see it as just another argument to divide the masses and keep all from doing as Jesus said, that being, love one another.
A good book to read, though, is "The Doctrine Of The Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound" by Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting. While I don't necessarily agree one hundred percent with them, they have done some good research. Neither were ever JWs.
That's cool. But what it seems you're doing is reading the Trinity into the scriptures instead of reading the scriptures and finding the Trinity. I have to agree with Dakota -- even as an ex-JW Christian I couldn't buy the Trinity, and Buzzard's book is quite good in explaining how very unlikely it would have been for certain Bible writers (and Jesus himself) to have taught or believed the Trinity.
Hay Trotafox, I hope all's well with you. It is my understanding that bible study using the bible alone or the bible along with material published by any corporation other then the WTB&TS is forbidden. A probable DFing caring the sentence of excommunication now and annihilation at Christ's second visible coming if the witness has not been reinstated to good standing by then.
I would have to say that the WT very much counts on witness to do there homework, of course, using study aids that substitutes for scripture, carry the weight of law and that's right, is published by the WT corp. the WT publishes what I, as a rational person, can only view as intentional misquotes in periodical after periodical. One may be a mistake two might be sloppy research but scores on a steady basis, can be only one thing, a technique. False statements supported by false evidence tells me something about the speaker and it's not he "didn't know," nor has it anything to do with dim light. Information control is the cornerstone of the liar.
Undecided and Cygnus: All are the same and yet different. All are holy. I have no problem when I accept it with my heart by faith. I have a problem if I try to rationalize it. Picture a hula hoop. Put three hula hoops on. As they spin, all three are the same kind of hula hoop and yet they move separately in different directions in different ways at the same time. The Trinity is not a doctrine mentioned in the Bible but it is a concept that has been conceived to better undertand the relationship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit so our pea brains can better understand the nature of God. The ransom sacrifice was God's gift given to us out of love. The Trinity doctrine in no way invalidates that ransom.
Dakota (Lew): Don't get hung up on it. I found out after I left the JW's that if I didn't bother trying to rationalize it and just accepted it for the moment, I understood the scriptures a lot better. Don't let it get in the way. Not everything can be easily explained but it doesn't mean we shouldn't believe it. I know that sounds like pretty dangerous "easy to get sucked up in" thinking but I'm much more comfortable and less fearful with mainstream religion these days after getting sidetracked by the JW cult. I wasn't going to let the Trinity doctrine get in the way. I did the first time and it let me get sucked up by a dangerous cult that I thought had the right understanding of it. WRONG.
Willy: Actually, if the JW's would just compare all those scriptures relating to the "first and the last" in their own NWT, it would stick out like a sore thumb. However, most only study the scriptures that are given to them to study as they read the mag. And I bet Rev 1:17-18 wouldn't be mentioned in the same article as the rest "first and the last" scriptures because it may cause a JW to make an comparison raising a question about the deity of Christ. I'll never forget my last phone conversation with by best friend JW: "The reason you have doubts is that you haven't had the opportunity to study [get brainwashed] like I have". Oh, please. Parroted entirely from the latest mag at the time. She couldn't even formulate a thought on her own without repeating WT rhetoric as if it was her own opinion. She no longer HAS an opinion....on anything...that hasn't come straight from the organization.
Like I said, the Trinity is read into the Bible, not found in the Bible. You can try to define the Trinity all you want. All the illustrations in the world won't matter.
The fact is, the Reasoning book does address the Alpha and Omega issue quite clearly and so have several Watchtowers. I believe this is one of the very most weakest trinity arguments out there.
...it is a concept that has been conceived to better undertand the relationship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit so our pea brains can better understand the nature of God.
Okay, I give up. How does a concept that doesn't make rational sense help you better understand anything?
Okay, I give up. How does a concept that doesn't make rational sense help you better understand anything?
Spoken like a true atheist. "God" -- talk about a concept that doesn't make rational sense or help us understand anything....... Still rational people and people who believe in God agree it's good to love, thay just disagree about what love is.
Jesus is a god, but there is only one God "Jehovah". But Jesus can be called a god because there are really many gods like Satan and the Worldly Authorities. But these are not really gods but false gods because there is only one "True God". Of course Jesus is not a false god but just a lesser god. Even though he is not "The God" he is truely a god, unlike so-called gods who are really false gods. Isaiah even goes so far as to call him "mighty god". So now that we've determined that we have "The God" Jehovah and the lesser mighty god Jesus. It must be pointed out that Jesus is really the Archangel Michael. So it basically boils down to just one God and they are the one True God Jehovah and the other lesser mighty god Michael the Archangel aka Jesus.
Please note: When one does obeisance to the God Jehovah. This can be properly considered "Worship". Obeisance to the god Michael is in no way considered "Worship".
LOL. I can't believe that I actually bought into that once. I'm glad you worded it that way.....and the WT calls that reasoning! This is the first time that I ever really thought of it that way. Man, the trinity is a piece of cake after that garbage. THANKS LOL dj
