I need some input...

by Lin 21 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Lin

  Hi everyone, something has been on my mind lately and I would really appreciate some comments. I've posted a few topic discussions on my story as a Dub, recent dicoveries of WT tampering with the Bible translations they use and the subsequent emotions that came from learning that so many things I was taught growing up are lies, and about visiting various churches (Chuck Swindoll etc). Here's what has been on mind the last few days.

  I understand completely that there is no one true religion, that each church regardless of denomination has it's own interpretations of scripture and beliefs. Okay fine, I got that. I feel a desire to become part of a church, probably non denominational, for the benefit of making friends, enjoying the occasions when the church has picnics, outings, talent shows, having dinner gatherings at our house, etc. I of course enjoy a good speaker too for a Sunday morning schpeal, but I really like the occasions when it isn't the typical Sunday go-to-church stuff. I have been having experiences (please don't think I'm wacked-out) when I feel as though God is speaking to me, not with literal words of course, but different things that have been happening that I just can't blow off as coincidence. Some of these things are just too Out-There to be coincidence.

  My question is about the subject of Being Saved. I've heard and read many times that when a person is "truly" saved, that it manifests itself in their lives and changes them forever. Changes them in the sense that their personal relationship with God is very real, and they live their lives with the full realization that God is directing their steps, actions, and choices. So many times, I've heard people comment that they are Saved, but from observing their lives and the things they choose to do, it seems strange to me that they say they are Saved. I can't help but wonder if some of these people simply say they are saved in some casual, perfunctory way, but it doesn't really have any real meaning or value to them in reality. It's just something they say...Oh, I'm saved. I don't understand how someone can say they are Saved, yet don't feel compelled to dig deep in a spiritual sense to figure out how God is directing them, pulling them to do this or that, etc. I can't help but wonder if some of the people who say they are Saved, were kids/teens who felt pressured to go forward in a church setting and go through through the "Invitation" ritual at some church much like Dub kids/teens feel pressured to get baptized because their peers are doing it. Which then from my perspective has no real basis or meaning or validity.

  If someone says they are Saved, how can they also have conflict within themselves, needing scientific evidences of scripture renderings? It makes me think that they really aren't Saved as they may think they are. Like people who don't believe anything at all unless it's right in front of their face and they can touch it. How can these same people claim to be Saved? I don't get it, maybe someone can help me understand how someone claiming to be Saved, can also require scientific evidence to prove anything. What then is Faith, if these same ones require scientific evidences?

  I hope I've made myself clear enough here, but I just don't understand how anyone can say they are Saved, yet feel no desire to build their personal relationship with God without clear scientific evidence that proves anything. Help!
• 

  Sentinel

  Lin: Thank you for this thread.

  What has happened to you, is that you have connected with your spiritual guide. Some call this your guardian angel.

  Please take this opportunity to work with this unseen yet powerful influence for the good. Ask and you shall receive. It may not come the way you perceive it should, but it will come. Obviously you have seen the power of what it can do in one's life.

  This is not brought about by any membership in a church. It is a very individual event. You have received a blessing. You have a very sincere heart.

  Regarding the "I'm Saved" thing. In my opinion, sometimes when a very special event occurs and a connection is made on the spiritual level, people misinterpret it. This is because we are so engrained as human beings to believe that it has to come from being religious, going to a certain building, behaving in a certain way. So not true. In fact, it isn't being "saved" that's really the issue. People just have an epiphany, which is so awesome that they misinterpret what is really happening and think that it means they have had a "religous experience".

  I certainly do not believe that a person is "saved" and they can just throw up their hands and live their life any old way they chose, and "god" will bless them. I'm not religious any more. That is one very good thing that came from being a JW. Once I got out, and did my research, I realized that religion in general, is the major cause for so much of the problems that exist in mankind.

  Spirituality is the important thing. You are connecting with your soul at a level you have never before experienced. Isn't it wonderful?

  Love and Light,

  Sentinel/Karen
• 

  Krazylady

  (((Lin)))

  I understand your dilema here. I think you've gotten a bit off track maybe. It doesn't matter to Jesus in YOUR life how other people react to being "saved". He doesn't want you to be led by other people, but by Him. You don't require 'scientific evidence'. You Know you are being directed by the Divine.

  There is all kinds of 'scientific evidence' that near death experiences are just some misfiring of the dying brain, but I don't need to pay the slightest attention to it. WHY? Because I had my own near death experience 30 years ago, at a time when I didn't even believe in heaven or anything remotely resembling life after physical death. I am here to tell you, that experience changed me. I began to see things very differently. It was truly the beginning of my deprogramming. Did it miraculously and immediately set me free? No. But it sure changed the direction of my life forever.

  You will make your own journey of discovery. It does not depend on anyone else's journey. It only depends on YOU and the direction you are led. I understand the need to connect with other like-minded individuals. But don't be afraid to also connect with people who are NOT so connected. Your destiny may be to show some of them by your example that there is MORE. The journey you are on will last your whole life. So enjoy the scenery!!! And have faith.

  As Voltarire said, "Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe. It is not enough that a thing be possible for it to be believed."

  Lve ya!!! Krazylady
• 

  Kingpawn

  Very valid points made about being saved.

  I've heard and read many times that when a person is "truly" saved, that it manifests itself in their lives and changes them forever. Changes them in the sense that their personal relationship with God is very real, and they live their lives with the full realization that God is directing their steps, actions, and choices.

  I would think that if a person really has a close, personal relationship with God, that it would show. They'd be happier, more optimistic about the future, eager to share their faith, motivated to do good to and for others, and able to make changes in their life pleasing to Him. Not that they wouldn't have bad days and moments of doubt. As humans we aren't designed to keep in some emotional "mode" long-term. FI, someone who is always, totally happy would strike me as odd, to say the least. Do they sleep with a silly grin on their face?

  I can't help but wonder if some of these people simply say they are saved in some casual, perfunctory way, but it doesn't really have any real meaning or value to them in reality.

  I wonder if many people say it because they don't feel like a "real Christian" if they don't. Like their religious experience isn't as "valid."

  If someone says they are Saved, how can they also have conflict within themselves, needing scientific evidences of scripture renderings?

  Some people might feel they're on safer ground debating nonbelievers if they can point to proofs produced by scientists as far as a Biblical flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, or other events, that nonbelievers would be more willing to accept. Others might say that we were given brains and curiosity, and the need to verify some things for ourselves, not taking them on blind faith, is both designed into us and beneficial for our spiritual growth.

  Like people who don't believe anything at all unless it's right in front of their face and they can touch it. How can these same people claim to be Saved?

  What they are in, imo, is denial...skepticism carried to a dangerous extreme. For example, if we believe in the reality of only those things we personally see/hear/touch/taste/smell, all else is illusion. If we admit our senses can be fooled (hallucinations both visual and aural, for example), then what is real? If an illusion could be crafted so skillfully that we couldn't tell where reality (whatever that is under the ultimate skeptic's definition) ends and illusion begins, which one is which? Are they both Reality, both Illusion, or neither? This sort of thinking has several (bad) uses. One, an excuse not to believe. Two, an excuse not to try and rebut someone else's logical arguments in favor of belief. Three, possibly a first step toward complete psychosis and loss of contact with reality.

  God's existence (for those who believe) can't be proven scientifically. How do you make a spirit creature visual ? How much does He weigh? Can someone tell how much space He takes up? What color is he? (Not as in race, just color, period.) His existence can only be surmised circumstantially. The beauty of a sunset, the playful nature of a kitten, the variety of colors, shapes, and tastes to food, the differing appearances/aromas of flowers, show evidence of someone who didn't want life to be boring for creatures here able to appreciate these things. Otherwise only bees care about flower smells, dogs don't care about a sunset, and the effort would be largely wasted.

  Faith, to me then, would be defined as the process of seeing proofs of a loving God all around and logically assuming His characteristics can be discerned from the things He did, just as our actions give clues to the thinking behind them.

  I hope this gives some useful input and you find what you seek.
• 

  Krazylady

  Hi, I just wanted to add that I agree with Sentinel. You are suddenly plugged in to the universe. It doesn't matter how it happened, it matters THAT it happened. Go with it. The journey on a non-spiritual level wasn't so great, was it? So now you are more spiritual. Ain't it Great? You are enjoying the benefits of two-way communication with the I AM. And by the way, I am, and You are and we all are. Some connect, some don't. Stay connected, because you already know the alternative is unacceptable to you. Love ya!! Krazylady
• 

  LB

  I'm sorry but, I'm very negative about this being saved thing. I've seen too many dirtbags walking around saying they're saved. I think it's an emotional thing and emotional only. You probably had the same feelings when you used to pray to Jehovah.

  I've actually found it amusing that people can even think they can call the shots when they brag about being saved. Not your job folks. How about that "once saved always saved" deal.
• 

  Eric

  Lin,

  Here is why you have a problem:

  Your Nose>>Other People's Business.

  Here is how to solve your problem:

  Your Nose<<----------------------------------------------------->>Other People's Business.

  See how easy?

  Eric
• 

  yucca

  some people think when they accept christ as their savior they are saved and can do anything wrong they want. once saved always saved. they forget that you must be born again. read 1 cor chapter 6. 9,10,11 says unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god. now since we are imperfect we can be forgiven a sin. but we must not wilfully sin over and over. we must be so sorry that we sin and ask to be forgiven. god knows our hearts and he loves us. i believe what you are feeling is the holy spirit who comes to reside in us. jesus has become my best friend. religion has caused alot of problems with dogmas and legalism. dos and donts just like pharsees and saducces. thats why jesus said the law was made for man not man for the laws. do you think god ordered the crusades? that was not gods will. many things have been done in gods name but were not gods will. if you study bible you will know your lord. the bible is spiritual food. i now can watch tv pasters on tv and decide by gods word whether they are false and teaching the truth of gods word. jesus said his sheep those who follow christ hear his voice john 10:4. when you read the bible pray to the lord to give you understanding he will. thanks for listening i hope this helps i am not too good at expressing myself. god loves you very much. there is one true religion the ones who follow christ and studies his word. just because a man has a bible in his hand does not make him a christian. just because he goes to church all the time does not make him a christian.its in his heart and god knows who his sheep are. christian love to all yucca
• 

  DJ

  Hi Lin,

  Used to have the same questions and you may still get more questions. I've gotten some interesting responses when I asked my questions. One was...."There are those who possess Christ and those who profess Christ" There is a difference for sure. The other thing I heard when searching for the right church was, "Well, when you find the perfect church, when you join it...you'll ruin it" LOL, they're right! It isn't a matter of what you or I believe about the spiritual condition of someone else.....it is about how you are! There are many scriptures in the bible where it teaches that not everyone who claims salvation is saved. There will always be bad apples in the churches....it is our place to lovingly try to help them but it is not our place to judse them. Jesus told us not to judge lest we be judged. right? I know, it's hard to be non-judgemental given our background as jw's. That is a biggy though. Who are we to decide who is worthy?

  I strongly believe that evidence of a person's salvation is shown thru their fruits. The fruits of the spirit are in Galations, right? Love is evidence for sure. There is no law against love, right? From time to time we all walk in the flesh and not the spirit, of course. It is not easy to always walk in the spirit. We make mistakes, we ask for forgiveness, it's a constant battle....a spiritual warfare. We run in this race, don't we? As far as finding a church..hmmm it's tough. There will always be little differences but the gospel holds true in most of them. I think that the message of Jesus as the only way to salvation by grace and a church that does good things as evidence of their faith is basically the right place to start. The differences in opinions about whether or not hell is a literal fire or just a separation from God, etc, etc. are trivial and they are not Divisons, but rather differing understandings that should never come in between Christians. The gospel of Jesus and his sacrifice for us it what truly matters and no division should exist about what He did for us.

  I understand what you mean about God speaking in your heart. Cool...that is what it's about. Holy Spirit!!! Just remember that the bible teaches us to test all things and you will be fine.

  Love in Christ and free, Donna
• 

  Lost Diamond

  Sentinel,

  Please check your email....