Last Days ? for ALL BIBLE BELIEVERS

by JT 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    JT

    For many of us who were perhaps like myself - A Dyed in the Wool Society Man/Woman and very strong supporter of the "Last Days concept".

    I have a question,-- below is just an example of the 14th century-

    Can you name anytime in history since the day Jesus and Paul introduced the dogma of the Last days where those who called themselves Christians didn't believe that they were the ones who were suppose to get the fullfillment of the last days dogma?

    Has there any been a time say in 800AD or 1215AD, etc---- where those who were believers taught that the last days would come not in thier time but further down the road long after they were dead and gone?

    the reason i ask this is ----How long can one continue to teach a dogma that has no fullfillment?

    being a former Society Man- the ole "where is the promised messiah/ Ridiculers would say" routine no longer impresses me.

    so I wonder has anyone read of a period in time where the bible believers were not going around telling non-believers THE END IS NEAR?

    THANKS

    JAMES

    REPOST

    The Last Days in the 14 th Century

    All through recorded history there have been people who have pointed to the calamities, horrors and disasters in the world, and preached that this signified an imminent end of the world. This isnt even unique to Christianity, which started off with strong millennial expectations in the 1 st century, and for the most part retains the same expectations almost 2000 years later.

    Many Christians through the centuries, always convinced that their time was that of the end, has always pointed to the ones who doubted the messages of doom and gloom, and applied to them the worlds in 2. Peter about "scoffers." Of course, the "scoffers" have always been correct, and the doomsayers were always wrong.

    Assuming we accept the troubled interpretation of the so-called synoptic apocalypse that has Jesus stating that wars, diseases, famine, crime and earthquakes would be a sign of his future second coming, let us put a loyal Christian at the end of the 14 th century.

    He has witnessed and experienced the events of this century, and looked for the "signs" of Jesus coming. What would he find?

    Wars

    The descendents of Genghis Khans Mongol hordes killed c. 35 000 000 of Chinese peasantry from 1311 to 1340. Mongol hordes had annihilated whole civilizations from the Pacific to the Adriatic Sea in the previous century; the wars that followed in China when these rulers were fought off were no less destructive.

    Do not believe for a second that this is even remotely all. In 1337 the longest war in recorded history, the Hundred Years War between England and France, started. The whole of Europe was also, through the first half of this century, divided into countless regional conflicts and feuds.

    Asia was not through with genocidal war, alas. Along, in 1370, came a Turkic conqueror known as Timur Lenk (or Tamerlane). He was a Tatar, a Muslim of Mongol descent. Timur Lenk wasnt second to even Genghis Khan in cruelty and ambitions for world dominance; his hordes slaughtered entire cities and left nations completely devastated. Timur Lenk typically built towers on the site of devastated cities with the skulls of the slaughtered population. Even great cities like Bagdad and Damascus were plundered and their populations annihilated. In India, it is estimated that one million people were killed in a few weeks alone. The century ended at the closing of this savage destruction; Timur Lenk died in 1405 during a campaign against China.

    Pestilence

    The Black Death (probably bubonic and pneumonic plague) killed at least 75 000 000 people in Eurasia alone from 1347 to 1351. This is the worst pestilence ever in sheer numbers, but neither its mortality nor its global nature was unique. Around 1/3 rd of Europes population perished; that is 25 000 000 people. In 1400, the population in England was perhaps half of what it had been 100 years earlier. In recorded history, the Black Death stands as a unique watershed, cutting off all continuity and paving the way for a whole new division of power and a changed order of things.

    Along with the famines that ravished the world in this century came countless other outbreaks of pestilence and disease. Dysentery and anthrax, and many other diseases, caused untold suffering. Also, leprosy reached its highest scope in Europe ever in this century.

    Earthquakes

    Contemporary chronicles of the 14 th century reports a large number of highly destructive earthquakes. Accompanied by the other calamities in this time wars, famine, pestilence these were highly devastating.

    A horrible Earthquake in 1348 for which no reliable fatality estimates exists, devastated greater parts of Europe. In Hungary, 36 towns or castles were destroyed, and some people even believe that the Black Death that followed were caused by all the corpses lying around after this disaster.

    Likewise, in 1356 the Swiss city Basel was totally demolished by an earthquake. In China, the period from 1337 to 1345 were marked by a large number of destructive earthquakes.

    Milnes catalogue of historical earthquakes lists 143 destructive earthquakes for the 14 th century. Considering the errant recording, its safe to say that this is a very low figure.

    Crime

    Following great disasters are always those who prey on the victims. Crimonologers who have studied crime during the ages will note that sharp increases in crime has often followed disasters, like plagues and wars. The 14 th century was one in which crime was on a steep increase. Historian George Lucas reports of a "great increase in crime." At the same time, piracy at the great seas was on the increase. Violent crime was so prevalent that it may have contributed to the population decline at the end of this century. The general fear, materialism and cynicism caused by the Black Plague was no doubt a great contribution to a dissolution of public moral and law and order.

    Famine

    The 14 th century marks the start of some serious climatic changes that caused widespread disturbances in seasons and crops. The result was widespread storms, rain, flood, droughts and of course serious crop failures. The worst, but by far the only one, was the universal famine 1315-1317, which caused conditions almost too cruel to mention. It is reported through contemporary chroniclers that parents ate their children, that people dug up bodies from churchyards for food, and that it even was common for people to kill others for food. In Europe north of the Alps and the Pyrenees 10% of the population perished according to some estimates.

    Right before the Black Death another serious famine devastated nations; it is estimated it may have affected 1/5 th of mankind.

    Conclusion

    Any Christian at the end of the 14 th century, having the same confused and a-historical understanding of "end-time signs" as contemporary doomsayers like Hal Lindsay or the Jehovahs Witnesses, could not fail to be convinced that the end of the world was imminent in 1400. The calamities he had experienced, if he had survived through the greater part of this century (a rare occurrence indeed), simply had to be a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. And yet, here we are, 600 years later, and we can listen to doomsayers who are ignorant about the events of the past spreading propaganda that would have us believe that our century is particularly bad.

    Nobody with any regard for facts can seriously argue that the 20 th century even comes close to being "worse" than the 14 th century. On the contrary, the population boom has occurred precisely because the causes of an early death that plagued that century have been brought under control. These calamities still exist and cause suffering, but their fatality and scope is only a fraction compared to earlier ages.

    Remember: In 1300 there may have been around 450 million people in the world. One hundred years later there were considerably less. In 1900, there were around 1 600 million people. We left the 20th century with almost four times as many people as entered it; over 6 000 million. That is a unique testimony to a century of prosperity beyond what our ancestors could imagine.

    - Jan

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hey JT,

    I can relate, believe me! I think that we, Christians are just supposed to be ready at all times. I think it is just that simple. I don't think about when the end will come......I believe it will, like all Christians but it is not a place to dwell. We don't know when...so we just live our lives as believers doing that daily stuff. If he does return in my lifetime and who knows.....then I'll be ready. I am ready always and that's where my peace comes from. Hope too. Christians agree that we've been in the LAST DAYS since Jesus was crucified......John said it. I know 2002? years is a long time to be in the last days lol but Jesus said that he didn't want anyone to perish and he is patient....so he's taking his time, I guess. The jw's are the ones with the interpretation that the last days just started since 1914.

    P.S. ok.....atheists....back off...it is my belief and I'm entitled just like you! Love, dj

  • JT
    JT

    THANKS for the post, while i may not agree with your position /view --as you stated it is yours

    thanks again

    jaes

  • jane53
    jane53

    "I don't think about when the end will come......I believe it will, like all Christians but it is not a place to dwell. We don't know when...so we just live our lives as believers doing that daily stuff."

    You're right, we, as human beings DONT know when 'the end' will come. Just like we DONT know if there will be an end, just like we DONT KNOW for sure if there is a god or if there isn't one. Not because we refuse to 'beleive' but because WE JUST DONT KNOW! WE KNOW that we are alive now. WE KNOW that we see through our eyes, hear with our ears, smell with our nose. WE KNOW that by giving blood we stop A PERSON FROM DYING. we KNOW that science has PROVEN with EVIDENCE that we EVOLVED AND SO DID ALL OTHER LIFE ON THE PLANET. IT IS TRUTH, NOT BELEIF. and whilst we can think about, fantasise, hypothesise, dream, think up ideas and theories, that is exactly what they are. Ideas, theories. THere MIGHT be a god. There might not. POint is, we all want the one thing, happiness and peaceful times for all. We want suffering to stop. with every disease cured or prevented by science, WE PREVENT AND STOP MORE SUFFERING. IT's NOT MYTHICAL, it's NOT MAGICAL, it's not A MIRACLE, ITS TRUTH!! THousands and thousands have died and suffered under religeon, theories that are taken literally and forced physically on societies. Theories and wonderful ideas that are TAKEN AS FACT. One day we will know more, maybe not in our lifetime but we are finding out more about our universe every day. Scientists have already begun to uncover and prove the existance of other universes. untill they do we're not going to base our LIVES on what they theorise about, just like we shouldn't base our every morality and life on religeous theories. IT is more dangerous and evil than anything else. BELEIF is what has driven people to kill masses at war, BELEIF is what gives us the excuse to do anything that in reality might be immoral but because we beleive 'its all in a good cause' or 'god wants me to' we think it's acceptable! To murder! To condone love and marriage! To stop families getting together and caring for each other at christmas time, even if they don't BELEIVE in something they don't know exists! To STOP THE CELEBRATION OF LIFE at birthdays! If birthdays are a bad experience for you, then you don't have to celebrate them, but don't inflinct that on others who may have previously enjoyed birthdays! IN the end it's all living. Going about our lives the best way we know how, and try to cease suffering in our world by PRACTICAL MEANS WHICH WE KNOW EXIST AND ARE PROVEN AS SHARPLY AS THE EYE CAN SEE THEM! To not think for yourself, to not feel the confidence and happiness that comes with making your own decisions for yourself, to question, to discuss ideas, to live for yourself and your family NOT AN ORGANISATION or a BOOK, that is sadness. And that sadness only adds to the evil hatred in our world.

  • JT
    JT

    Jane i'm with you on this one-

    i guess after years of feeling I know the answer --cause i got the inside track to god with this little book -

    when i see other belief system do the same thing it is hard to accept

    at this rate if another 2000yr go by and it is the year 4010 bible believer will still be declaring that WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS

    It's like - don't they get it--- after waiting for a train for 2000yrs - you just might want to consider another mode of transportation

    and now looking at how just as sincere as a believer today feels WE ARE LIVING IN THE LAST DAY and the Signs apply to them and thier time -

    every since the day jesus and paul started teaching the LAST DAYS DOGMA

    believers have been trying to say "IT'S US IT'S US" we are the ones who these things are being fullfilled on and then 125yrs go by and they are all dead and then the next group rolls in declaring: "IT'S US IT'S US"

    even the poster had to laugh at himself for believing this dogam due to the amount of time:

    "I know 2002? years is a long time to be in the last days lol"

    You almost want to go: OK , DUHHHHHHHHHHHH!

    smile

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    All I can say is that whenever my mother starts in on her "last days" diatribe, and how awful the world is now, I aske her "in what time in history would you rather have lived?
    1. When your great grandparents were starving in Ireland in the 1800's?
    2. The middle ages, when filth and disease were rampant?
    3. The crusades era perhaps? Or the time of the Inquisition?
    4. Or when the plague and black death were killing off all of Europe?"

    She usually changes the subject, but it makes a point.

  • JT
    JT

    "in what time in history would you rather have lived?

    @@@@@@@

    that is pretty good, is it not amazing how when you call on such a person be it your mom or any one here that they realize that to answer that questions destroys thier orginal point of The signs are for Us during this time period-

    When Rodney King was beaten i recall being in SE Washington, DC giving a talk and during the wt study the conductor talked about this was a sign of the time "racism" on the rise, etc

    and i recall my wife Lady "C" on the way home- saying well if that had happend in the 50's it would not have made page 32 of the paper -

    and this is the problem that believers are often times faced with- if you roll the clock back a few years life was a dog- most folks get 2weeks off here in the states

    child laws prevent kids from working in coal mines, etc

    so yea things are not alwas peachy cream, but tell me how many folks want to go back to the good ole days of "Out Door Toilets" like we had when i was growing up in rural NC- smile

    great point Mulan

  • Monster
    Monster

    JT Said:

    It's like - don't they get it--- after waiting for a train for 2000yrs - you just might want to consider another mode of transportation

    LOL I know you are serious but that was kind of funny. But then they have to ask, another mode of transportation to where?

    Mulan asked:

    what time in history would you rather have lived?

    The roaring 20s, boy they really did live it up..:) That's a time I think i could have been happy in.

    Peace James.

  • larc
    larc

    JT,

    I have seen this before. I think AlanF posted it, but I lost track of it. This time I am going get this printed out. It is very powerful. Very few people, either inside or outside the religion, take the time to get a perspective by studying history. Thanks again for writing about a very important subject.

    Also, thank you for phoning me. I really appreciate that. I got a personal e-mail from your father. He is going to send me pictures of you and your wife, and him and his wife.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Since I can remember from the time I was just a child I never stopped thinking and believing that there has to be a calm before the storm. And who knows how long the calm will last. But regardless, we have not yet experienced a calm worldwide. There has always been wars and fighting over world domination or fighting to prevent world domination not to mention millions of hungry starving people in almost every corner of the earth. (Corner?) You know what I mean.

    I still believe that. The JWs stopped waiting for it and changed the meaning of the last days to correspond with the 20th century. They now consider the world as experiencing world peace for sometime now, which is absolutely ludicrous imo.

    Just tell that to all those living in the middle east that there is and has been world peace for sometime now and why did they miss out on it. Pay Attention! duh...

    Also their hasn't been quite enough dammage done to religion yet.

    just my opinion.and im stickin to it.

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