Joseph Frantz (Hyghlandyr) To be Disfellowshipped?

by Hyghlandyr 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    Well first let me say hello to all. Thanks and congrats to the silent lambs Marchers. I wish I could have been there. Circumstances at the last minute prevented it. The pics demonstrated a great showing. Hats off.

    Now I have been in cleveland for one week. Before I left Cincinnati, on the 19th the elders to my wife's congregation showed up. I was asleep in the attic so did not hear them knocking. They left a note. She gave me the note and the phone so I called. They wanted to come by. I said sure, stating again the same thing, that I am no longer one of Jehovahs Witnesses. But that I was going out of town on the 20th (Friday) and that I was probably going to go to a march in NYC against the watchtower bible and tract society for their policy of covering up child rapists. (As stated I was unable to make it). But that they could come by on the 30th because I should be back by then.

    Well they showed up the next day. I forget their names. One has that elder look about him. He is the one that kept trying to get me to state I wanted to DA myself. And he did this time as well. I gave him an example from the watchtower I read years ago..

    A JW resigned from the catholic church. Sent them a letter. They sent him a letter back stating they would not accept it. Basically a once a catholic always a catholic statement by them. But that I knew, especially from this article, that the watchtower society was not like that. It was one of the things I appreciated about being a witness. I knew, that unlike other religions, I could just walk away if I wanted. And I was no longer a member. In the same standing as if I had never been a member.

    To which he (evil elder) brought up about Dfing and what the bible says. To which I stated, yes I agree with that it is a very great thing. Of course both that and the watchtower says anyone who is called a *brother*, which of course I am not, since I am not a brother. To which he tried to respond some would think I was. To which I responded that no one thinks I am a witness.

    I then quoted how the website had changed. That in the past it had said, anyone who had "ceased to be involved in the faith" which might mean if I went to a meeting I could get in trouble as that might be viewed as being involved in the faith. But now the site says anyone who has quit the faith. Well, I said, a catholic can quit the church, and become another religion and still go to mass. So too with witnesses, they can quit and still go to meetings, still sing, and so forth, and still not be members. So the website is even now more freeing.

    Of course, I said, there are those who claim that the website is a lie. That you do in fact shun former members. Now if you want to break your own rules you can do so. I wont even view you as bad for doing so, because as far as I have seen Jehovahs Witnesses are like every other religion on the planet, no different, and religions lie, so I expect you also to lie.

    To which evil elder kept trying to get me to DA. To which I said, the same thing, I am not a member thus I do not need to DA. I then told him that I was not going to play the game by their rules, but I would insist that they themselves follow their own rules.

    I should state that all of these things came after me ranting for perhaps 30 minutes to an hour about how my sperm donor had raped my sister and it was covered up by two elders at her hall. And the policies of the WTBTS. I will also note that when I went downstairs I put on my silent lambs t-shirt, no molesters at my door.

    Eventually I got out the bible and read Jer 8:8 to them. Then I read Deut 22:28,29. This is the place where the bible ....the torah...GOD.. COMMANDS that a rape victim MUST be sold to her rapist. I stated that the JW policy that a woman must be DFed for her rape, is in fact biblical, and that I reject the bible because of this. The nice elder tried to say he didnt have enough info and that we dont understand everything about god. I stated I had heard those excuses plenty of times. And the only reason I was reading that was to tell them that I reject the bible. Either man changed and added that or if in fact the God Yahweh/Jehovah commanded it then he is a foul deity of whom I want nothing to do with.

    Then I told them how I had studied with the mormons. And the mormons said to pray to god and he would verify his existence. I told them I fibbed a bit to the mormons. That I prayed (which I did) and god did not answer. So I prayed to one of the Irish deities, Bridhe and she answered in my dream. Telling me yahweh was real. But he was an itty bitty desert ditty, whose only solution to every problem was to open up the earth and swallow people or rain fire down from heaven on them, or murder them by stoning. By contrast Bridhe says to me, an Irish Drui (yes drui not druid..druid is the plural) could go onto the battle field and say HUSH and the battle would stop. She then took me to a battle to demonstrate. Regretably I forgot to mention that after that she and I fought in a battle naked together then shagged like bunnies, which is ok cause with my teeth I look like a bunny.

    I finally gave them the info on my former elders, and told them that so and so was the only elder I would trust, cause after all I didnt even know them. And the way those old elders could get in touch with me. I also told them they could df me if they wanted to break their rules but it would be interesting that for almost a year they have not contacted me, having concluded that I could not be dfed, and now mysteriously they were contacting me again. This just a few weeks after I gave the elders on Bowens Appeal Comittee Hearing my full name, info, former congregations, wifes congregation info, sperm donors info etc, asking them to please verify that he has no position in the congregation.

    They left with nice elder saying he was just trying to help me so Jehovah wouldnt shun me. My response was that if Jehovah really did exist and IF they were right then he was already doing so, and good riddance. That if I were to become a christian again I would be Irish Catholic or Celtic Orthodox. But most likely I will just follow the religion of my ancestors because those dirty jews are noted liars, whereas my ancestors were noted as trustworthy. (And yes earlier I did give them the ole, jews ate their babies thing, its in their own scriptures and they also offered their children in sacrifice, burnt alive. To which they responded that those jews were disobedient to which I responded that no Irishman ever did such a thing). They then said that god revealed the lies of the jews, to which I said, yes in Jer 8:8 where he showed that they made up the Torah with their own lying pens. And that I would not follow the religion of those dirty jews over the religion of my ancestors. I said dirty jews a few times, just for the sake of a reaction. It didnt garner one. Oh well.

    End.....

    Edited by - Hyghlandyr on 28 September 2002 1:12:58

    Edited by - Hyghlandyr on 28 September 2002 1:14:10

  • Quotes
    Quotes

    Hy, you are the coolest.

    Accolades for your reasoned reaction to the drones. You rock!

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    This was the best thing I read all day. Thanks. Now, I can go to bed laughing. I printed it out, and can't wait to show my hubby.

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    Quotes, it was your website that freed me. Not saying other info didnt but your exposure of the things the watchtower said without comments allowed me to read it without feeling it was apostate.

    Thanks.

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    I dont oppose them. I am an apostate not an opposer. I do oppose four policies (and I told them this):

    1...DFing either needs to be simply that someone is no longer a member, but not shunned, or if the accused desires, they should be entitled to a public judicial comittee hearing so that if they are DFed no one thinks they did something else, for instance a fornicator wont be thought of as having molested a child, or someone who only questions doctrine privately wont be thought of as a drug user.

    2...Those accused of molestation or abuse must never be allowed door to door.

    3...Those accused of molestation or abuse must never be allowed to hold ANY responsibility.

    4...Those accused of molestation or abuse must ALWAYS be reported to the police.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    So why do they keep coming by? I mean you've stated very clearly you're not a Witness anymore, so why are they pressuring you to DA yourself? Just curious since I might be facing the same thing one day . . . .

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    Because they like to think that we are still witnesses. Thus they always have authority over us. It isnt because witnesses are talking to me, since they are not. I brought out how they had already marked me. And those witnesses that still talk to me, knowing I am an apostate and mostly a pagan, would still talk to me anyhow. But its their little powergrab. The nice elder really is sincere. I would guess he has been an elder only a short time. The last time they came was october last year. So it isnt like they are harrassing me. But at that time evil elder kept trying to get me to DA. I told him you dont try to get the catholic down the street to DA? Why? cause he is NOT a member. So too with me, I am not a member.

    If you want Tex I can post what I did the first time. As to whether they DF me or not I could care less since I dont associate. I told them last year it would be like a child saying, I am not gonna play with you anymore! when i havent played in seven years. But the point is their website says they DONT do that. Now if they said they DO, and they shun ALL FORMER MEMBERS, ok then DF me...no problem. But for the moment thats not what they claim. Thus I make them follow their own rules.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Interesting. Yeah, how did you respond the first time? Was that just last year? I find it amazing that they keep coming after you. I thought there was an official statement, and I know it's been posted on this forum several times, that said members can leave without being shunned. It's only those DF'd or DA'd that get shunned. But it sounds to me as if that is not true. What a shock. Jehovah's Witnesses lying!

    I'm just kinda curious as an elder from my wife's congregation has come by several times to "encourage" her. (She stopped attending meetings back in June). The last time he asked if he could bring another elder over the next time to "readjust" her attitude. Like you, I don't care about that. I just object to someone else making a decision for me (or my wife). Thanks.

  • Ephanyminitas
    Ephanyminitas
    "Those who simply leave the faith are not shunned." -- http://jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm

    What this sounds like to me is if you say, "I've left the faith," then that's the end of that. If you're not part of the faith, then the elders should not have any authority and you shouldn't be able to be tried for any wrongdoing -- because if you've left, you've left. Make sense?

  • Cicatrix
    Cicatrix

    Go Joe!!!

    I DA'd myself last month. I got a visit from the Big Boys about two weeks ago.They weren't considerate enough to call and make an appointment(but then I'm just a woman and my husband never was a witness-sooo).Being a woman, I felt it better for me not to give a reason for DAing myself.They kept pressing, I kept refusing.They seemed to need some kind of an admission, and asked if I was involved with another church(looking for evidence of apostacy, I guess).I couldn't understand why they needed an admission. I thought if you DA'd yourself, you were automatically considered an apostate .That's what their rule book says, anyway.Could it be they need a legitimate reason to convince the congregation?:)

    At any rate, whatever they decide now has no bearing on my life (I'm fortunate enough not to have family memmbers in the Borg and the real friends I made could care less if I'm in or out). I made my intentions clear when I sent my letters out. Whatever they do now after the fact is moot. But I am interested to see how they handle this.

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