Dearest Dragon & Kelsey

by BB 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • BB
    BB

    Is there some purpose to be gained by attacking Bill Bowen and SilentLambs? Do you honestly feel that Bill Bowen can be equated to the GB and is exercising his own form of brainwashing? Are his motives so disingenuous? Is the real purpose of SilentLambs to destroy and overthrow the WTBTS, as youve alluded to?

    The following is just one of several exchanges from another popular ex-JW site:

    Atlantisdragon writes With today's silentlambs march in NYC, it got me to wondering something. How did you view Ex-Jw's when you were active? I wondered, as I had to put myself into this past thought to see how a common Witness would have seen today's march.

    The Witness mind speaks ... (Not the current me) "Personally I see these actions as just another example of how far these people have fallen from Jehovah's grace. They are under the control of Satan and only want self-glory in their anger towards their own actions. They are the stubborn goats, that tries to lead without listening. They are wasting their time and using this cause for protecting abuse, to channel their own personal hatred."

    Basically : I see these actions as nothing more then a strengthening to my faith, and a building of my fear to ever speak out on anything. Thus I risk falling into such a depraved condition.

    Okay I will snap out of that then ... did not like the feeling of thinking the old way again. The thing is, in all honesty. I don't see where the march is going to have any affect on active Witnesses. When the Ex-Jw's protested in front of the Kingdom Halls and assemblies, we laughed at them. When they wrote letters to the newspapers, or started Ex-Jw support groups ... we figured it was Satan controlling them.

    So I ask something, do you think silentlambs is having any affect on turning people away from the organization or do you think they are building some peoples faith? After all, they see such a thing as a "sign of the end!"

    Kelsey When so few, if any of the rank and file are even aware of these events I agree with dragon. The few who may be aware will just shake their heads in dismay and pity the poor fools who gave up their everlasting life by not waiting on jehovah. To me that is the long and the short of it.

    Legal avenues must be persued to make this effective. Personally I have the feel that the feel that the founders and leaders of the silent lambs org is demonstrating hat and anger against the WT. I have never found that such motivation brings lasting change or finds a large audience.

    Dragon I also find that when someone is motivated by hate, they attract people with a lot of anger too. The ones who actually want to help, turn away in time when they see that their is not really enough help happening.

    This happens in politics all the time. I could name a million examples.

    Kelsey As I have stated before I have gotten the feel that to give any criticism to the silent lambs founder is like having critisized a jw elder.

    I belonged to a cult before and I not interested in belonging to another- bowenite or whatever.

    I have noticed- especially on the other board that many have offered up the "shunning" process to those who would question the authority of bro bill or silent lambs. We sit as an ex-jw to a active jw in comparrison. I am for aiding the victims and bringing a positive change in churhc policies. I am against acts motivated by hate and anger or seeking vindication for ones stand. I Had enough of that also when I was a jw. "Spanking those bad boys" or loud mufflers and squeeling tires in fron of a KH does no good for the victims and certainly does not change WT policy. Laws can force the change.

    as you indicate in your post dragon- the jw's aren't giving much positive thought to the actions of an ex-jw.

    Dragon Kelsey I have noticed what you said too. I think it is a example of "old habits hard to break." I know it has not been on this board, but the examples on others has made me very disappointed in silentlambs. I want to distance myself completely from another's vendetta.

    Did you see the post where someone called me a a**hole for asking a question about silentlambs?

    The following are again, my own comments (BB)...

    I think it is very easy for armchair quarterbacks to criticize the work of others, especially if they would never be caught dead supporting an event like, themselves. It would mean revealing their true identity to those they claim to support, but more importantly, it would mean that they would finally have to come from behind the curtain in the Societys eyes and risk expulsion.

    Are those who have already had their lives destroyed pinning false hope on the SilentLamb organization? Those of us who actually attended the march in support of the few valiant lambs who were able to attend (and in recognition of the thousands of other victims who were not able to) should we just count ourselves fools for somehow allowing ourselves to be sucked in?

    I think not.

    Ill count the march on September 27, 2002 as one of the most wonderful and rewarding events in my lifetime. Ill never forget the memorable statements of the SilentLambs and the weight of their poignant message in front of the society world headquarters.

    Nor will I forget the stand of those who have already been disfellowshipped, or who were about to be disfellowshipped. In a way, these persons make the ultimate statement in love and courage. To be willing to stand against the societys policy in support of SilentLambs, knowing full well that they will be sacrificing their religion and lifelong relationships with family and friends, is nothing short of incredible.

    As I see it, this is not just the efforts of a single individual, but the combined efforts of concerned individuals, from around the world to effect a policy change.

    Those that have helped to organize this (and other events) are not lemmings who blindly follow a single charismatic individual, the very thought (with our similar backgrounds) is repulsive and ludicrous.

    Finally, I appreciate the opportunity to have been a part of this effort and would welcome the chance to lend my support in the future.

    BB

  • kenpodragon
    kenpodragon

    Why does it bother you that people would question Bill Bowen, is he your leader? I ask this question, as I have seen so many people following him and even calling themselves bowenites, that I am concerned for you. I am worried you are heading from one leadership of the GB to the next leadership of Bill Bowen. For example, it bothers me that everyone thought it was a good idea to march on the Watchtower headquarters. It bother me, because I can not believe someone did not speak up and think about how it would have made more of a stance marching on Washington DC! It shows once more, leadership based on certain bias. Take for example the GB and their attack on Catholics. I often wondered, why so much on the Catholics? Then as I studied I learned their were a lot of attacks on the GB in the past, supported by the Catholics. Thus, the GB had a personal vendetta to see there down fall, or to be a thorn in their side. In reality, if they really wanted to focus on a religion that was damaging ... they would have needed to attack all of the religions equally. Something that took years to bring about, and to this day, I still see a major attack on Catholics in their religion. So when someone says "I want to help the children", well my first thought is to say, "wonderful!" Then I start looking into it and I find that the leader makes statements about "taking down the religion" and calling people stupid for asking. I think, "how is that about the children." To me, if it was really about the children ... why would they reject the idea of changing laws and changing the legal system? Why would they not research all the states and see what changes need to be made, and teach their people to fit this. In addition, why would they not march on Washington DC ... which is the seat of law in this country. I have said before, insanity is doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting different results. Is this an example of people not learning from the past mistakes of the organization they used to belong too? I wonder, as I see more anger in these marches then love. I see more anger in peoples defense of this man then love. In this I ask, "if is is about the children ... then shouldn't it be about love." Doesn't love guide us to make positive decisions? Just wondering Dragon PS : I am not upset that you posted these thoughts on the other board, you are still my friend. I predicted this was going to happen last night on the board.

    Edited by - kenpodragon on 29 September 2002 14:2:51

  • kelsey007
    kelsey007

    BB- These are certainly things and feelings that are honest from my perspective. I do believe that silent lambs has the makings of being a excellant vehicle for assisting abuse victims and exposing pediphiles. The concerns I expressed are genuine and certainly open for public debate. Not all will ever see eye to eye and as I stated in an earlieer post- I am doing nothing to aid more than expressing myself and my ideas on this board.

    It is my sincere hope that any critisms expressed by me can be viewed and if there is any point that may prove valid such criticisms then can be viewed as constructive in nature. My heart goes out to all abuse victims. As I have stated before silent lambs is doing something- I still suggest however that approaching this from a legal avenue would bring more positive change to all vicitms of abuse in all religious organizations.

    I am not a silent lambs fan nor a bill bowne fan. I am not a bowenite or a jw. I am a fan of justice and freedom. I am in agreement that "two wrongs do not make a right".

    One of the freedoms that we all enjoy in this country is the freedom to freely express our views. Open discussion of views at some point brings balance. One of the downfalls of the jw organization is the restriction of such debate. One dare not express his or her opinion for fear of being labeled an apostate. In rightly raising questions as to the intent of silent lambs and certain conduct of the founder a debate was opened and the result was as stated.

    My heart goes out to the victims and I would love to see silent lambs grow into a balanced effort to aid victims. I also would love to see such organizations band together to march on washington in a joint effort to gain legal tools to correct this prevalant conduct that exist in all walks of our society. I equally stand firmly against using such as a venue to bash or demolish any religious organiztion regardless of my personal feelings toward such organization.

    Hate and anger is not a good motivator for accomplishing good. Focus is important and the cause should always be greater than the leader.

  • DJ
    DJ

    Ok. Wow, this is a strange thread. Here's my take:

    I think that it's either paranoia or downright ignorance to project by insinuation that the silentlamb victim marchers are following their cult leader or 'Bowenites' as it has been stated.

    Where does this concept come from? Am I delusional to think that perhaps this was a start in the healing process for these victims? Am I delusional to believe that IT IS GOOD for them to confront the leaders of this sick policy? I do agree that the laws of the land need to be changed and ALL accused molesters need to be investigated by the proper legal authorities. I have written to my congressmen, etc.

    Just because we were victimized by the WT does not mean that we should never again join a cause. I think it's outrageously innacurate to portray these victims as following a new GB. If you have evidence to back up what you say then show us. If not, I suppose that you just are in need of attention be it good or bad.

  • kelsey007
    kelsey007

    I would like to set the record straight. Dragon and I do not know each other. We found that we both shared similar views and both are outspoken in those views.

    I have seen many others on both boards that saw the same things as we have. Though we have been more expressive in sharing these views than most it is not an uncommon view.

    One would hope that having drawn these things to light that people with the honest goal of aiding the victims and bringing such conduct to light would find a balance between their goals and the thoughts that both dragon and I have expressed.

    If, however, our views- honest as they are- bring a jwish type response from silent lambs supporters it would only serve to prove that our points have validity

  • kenpodragon
    kenpodragon

    DJ

    I do not want to argue ... only mention that bowenites came from this board

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=33965&site=3

    Take Care

    Dragon

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hi Ken,

    Thanks for the laugh. I don't want to argue either. I was just saying what I think, like you do. For me, there is a huge distinction between the two threads. One is jest and one is accusatory. Dj

  • kenpodragon
    kenpodragon

    DJ

    That is what freedom is all about my friend. Saying what we think.

    Take Care

    Dragon

  • johnny cip
    johnny cip

    well i went to the march i was never a jw, but i know all about them my dad is one. i asked the same questions. about pressuring politians etc. the word i got is that they are trying to ..that the wt is hiding behind the fact that they are a church and don't have to give up info. we did have a few other child protection groups there. others didn't show. i agree that the only way to make change is in the gov't . i didn't see anyone worshiping bill.. i think he is doing his best to get things rolling. remember these people are lifelong jws. what does he really know about the catholics etc. the lambs have been working with snap and other orgs. at least you have to give bowen credit the guy has BALLS. in time this will get gov't moving on child abuse in all walks. if no jw opened their mouth we still be talking only about false prophecy, and the U.N. scandel...john

  • kelsey007
    kelsey007

    The fight is against pediphiles- or at least I thought. Did bowen have to know a lot about pediphiles to fight the fight? No more than the rest of us I assume. Yes, all us ex-jws know the org. I also know that a joint effort by all in washington will have a more profound effect than a bunch of EX- anythings marching on their old church. And I have no problem with a march on NY.

    After all the fan fair there has been no media attnetion given to fridays march. I suggest, only suggest, that such groups are soon identified as disgruntled ex members with a vendetta against thier old religion. If such is the cae the media soon loses interest. If the focus is made by exes from all dif religions in a joint effort a greater impact can be had.

    Please understand- March on NY all you want. No harm done. Public venting of hate toward the WT does harm the cause in the publics mind. It may help victims in recovery even to march on the WT. But if the real issue is to make changes- then that is where the points dragon and I are making are soming in. It is not a JW issue- it si an abuse issue. Making it a JW issue shortens the attention span for there few affected by the WT compared to the catholic church.

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