Hands up those who fear Jehovah

dreamer

This in response to Logical's post 'Hands up those who love Jehovah' It was an interesting question, but I feel that my 'response' is more suited to another topic. I think that one should refer to the bible to answer it though:

Exodus 12:29
Jehovah kills all the firstborn of Egypt

Exodus 32:27-29
Jehovah instructs Moses and his men to ‘kill each one his brother and each one his fellow and each one his intimate acquaintance’

Deuteronomy 2:33-34
Jehovah allows Israel to capture Sihon. ‘devoting every city to destruction, men and women and little children. We left no survivor’

Joshua 10
With Jehovah’s help, the Gibeonites, Elgonites, the Hebronites and many others are completely destroyed.

2Kings 2:23-24
Elisha causes 42 children to be mauled to death by bears in the name of Jehovah.

Ezekiel 9:6
Jehovah says ‘Let not your eye feel sorry, and do not feel compassion. Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women YOU should kill off – to ruination’

There are countless other examples of the cruelty of Israel’s God of Armies. Is this the one true God? Is this the same God of the New Testament? I am not sure anymore.

This amount of violence could possibly have been reconciled if it was for the saviour of Israel the nation: For God to keep his promise to Israel (Deut 26:18-19). Does this promised land have any significance today? I think not. So why was it so important then? Was the ‘nation’ of Israel so important? Was this wanton destruction of countless hundreds of thousands of people and mindless cruelty to animals and children really necessary?

I suppose I am confused by the apparent contradictions in prophecy and morals found in the bible and interpretations thereof. I am unable to answer the question posed by Logical due to these fundamental questions which remain unanswered (unanswerable?). I think that for those who are convinced that Israel’s God of Armies, Jehovah, is the one true God Almighty, then there is a more appropriate question to answer: Do you fear Jehovah? The bible puts it much better....Exodus 32:26 ‘Who is on Jehovah’s side? To me!’

logical

Even more reason to love Jehovah then.

Im sure all these deaths were last resorts and just.

Considering He MADE us, He can do what He likes with us, and death is sometimes the only way to get a point accross to stubborn unrepentant humans.

bjc2012

Logical,

Good point! Just to add to your thoughts, 1 John 4:18 says: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love."

Dreamer:

If one has the type of fear (it's more like fright) that you are projecting with the scriptures you quoted, then this individual will never come to know Jehovah in order to learn to love him as he should. I think that every human knows that Jehovah has the ability to destroy all life on this planet if he so chooses, not only that but he, as Logical stated, has the right because he is the lifegiver. And if he so chooses, he can resurrect every human whose life he has taken.

The most important point is not whether God kills humans, but whether individuals believe that they are under obligation to obey their creator, to do what he says is right and so make a good name for themselves with Him.

Or, are we, as humans, in a position to find fault with God? At Job 40:1,2, (NIV) Jehovah asks this question: "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" Do you know anyone who can do this?

bjc

waiting

Hello,

Considering He MADE us, He can do what He likes with us, and death is sometimes the only way to get a point accross to stubborn unrepentant humans.

An interesting way of looking at owners/creators. That's exactly how slave owners used to feel about their slaves. Thus, if they wanted to hack them to pieces, fine and dandy. Destroy a family unit and rape the girls? The slaves were his - do what he wanted. Whip, beat, mutilate, inpregnate, kill, all his rights as owner. And he had good reasons for all his actions, more babies, keep slaves from running away, from speaking out.

Some parents used to view their offspring as property they made - some parents still do. Famous quote (author unknown) "No one's gonna tell me that I can't fu*k my daughter." Another famous quote (perhaps misapplied by many) "Spare the rod, spoil the child." We make our children, that doesn't give us the right to kill them.

People who own pets sometimes feel that they can do what they want to those animals. Logical, you and I have talked about that before, haven't we? My father viewed his animals as his property, thus to be treated as he wished. You thought it was gross and sickening. Just because we own a living thing does not give us entitlement to kill the living thing we own.

I'm sure there are other arguments for fearing God, and death and mutilation make a dandy argument for that fear. But that still doesn't make it right. Perhaps he does have his reasons, perhaps we're just interpretating the history of mankind in a way we can understand - but your explanation doesn't wash.

waiting

dreamer

Logical

Considering He MADE us, He can do what He likes with us, and death is sometimes the only way to get a point accross to stubborn unrepentant humans.

What point did He get accross to us exactly?

BJC2012

Or, are we, as humans, in a position to find fault with God? At Job 40:1,2, (NIV) Jehovah asks this question: "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" Do you know anyone who can do this?

I was not 'contending' Jehovah. I was simply stating that love may not be overriding emotion given the history. If one believes that all of these things occured as the will of Jehovah, then one must surely fear him.

Waiting

You make some good points in your post. I have heard the 'he made us, so he can do what he wants with us' arguement before. It doesn't wash with me either.

Maybe this thread doesn't belong in this forum. I just can't see why all the destruction and cruelty was part of God's plan. If it was the literal nation of Israel that would benefit from God's promise, then I can see why. If, however, it is spiritual Israel who benefits, then why all the bloodshed establishing the nation of Israel?

logical

Dreamer,

The Bible contains REAL events, those things REALLY happened.

For example, Jehovah killed all of Pharoahs first born, because he refused to let Jehovah's people out of bondage. He had to resort to death, because every after every other plague Pharoah failed to release Israel.

This, amongst many other examples, show the seriousness of rivalling and ridiculing Jehovah. These are examples to show what WILL happen to people who do this.

The Bible is a LOT more than just a book.

dreamer

Thanks for your reply Logical. You said:

The Bible contains REAL events, those things REALLY happened.

I never contested that at all, in either of my posts. I simply asked if you believed that they were carried out as the the WILL of Jehovah. You also said:

This, amongst many other examples, show the seriousness of rivalling and ridiculing Jehovah. These are examples to show what WILL happen to people who do this.

That is a fair point: The bible makes it very clear that those who ridicule or even rival Jehovah will die. I am not sure how much rivalling or ridiculng of Jehovah the children in 2Kings 2:23-24 were doing. I am equally unsure of the nature of ridiculing or rivaling that that the firstborn of Pharoahs Egypt were doing.

I am not trying to prove or disprove anything, and I am not questioning Jehovah's actions. I am confused as to the 'nature' of God in the light of my inability to resolve these issues to my satisfaction.

Scorpion

Dreamer,

From what I read from your posts, you have been doing a lot of thinking. That is good!

TR

logical,

why didn't Jehovah just immobilize the egyptians somehow, so the Isrealites could leave? All powerful God need not resort to killing. Methinks some people just like death and destruction, including Jehovah.

TR

waiting

Well, I have a question:

I understand how the deaths of thousands of unbelievers/sinners in ancient times would be delivered with swords, bears, earthquakes, plagues, etc. Those types of deaths were available so that survivors would fear God and obey him - plus cleanse the earth of the aforementioned sinners. Gory, gross, painful, nightmarish to survivors - but fear inspiring, yes?

Well, we are in the year 2001 and other means are technically available and understandable to us to be used by God. Why does the Bible say that people will die painfully at Armageddon? Buildings falling upon them, men killing men, God killing men, etc. Still with nightmarish memories to survivors.

Why couldn't God just zap the unbelievers? Afterall, He's just ridding the earth of the unclean - there is no need for pain and punishment. And much gentler to those jw's (and mentally ill/retarded) who will survive, don't you think? Nothing grossly stupendous to forget about.

Also, if God zapped the unbelievers, there would be no major ruined cities to clean up quickly, no animals dead, no terrible germs to deal with, no dead bodies to deal with. No polution. Just 99.9% of the population gone. Nice and clean and efficient. "So the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah." Who cares - God's killing them - they won't know or remember for long, now will they? Those left have already proven that they believe in God - so the carnage is not for their benefit.

The WTBTS has suggested that God will somehow *dispose* of the dead humans & animals after Armageddon so jw's won't have to use dump trucks to load the bodies. Besides, it's not logical that .01% of persons could efficiently dispose of billions of persons and the blood up to the survivors hips.

Why couldn't God somehow *dispose* of the unbelievers *before* they died so that he wouldn't create such a carnage to be cleaned up *after* they were killed by him?

waiting

Hands up those who fear Jehovah

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