Did Christ exist?

uncle_onion

Hi all

Jesus Christ is the main feature of Christianity. What proof is there of him existing? We touched on this subject on the the last thread that I started, but I would appreciate in depth veiw points and "evidence" please.

idaho

Hi uncle

Besides historic references to scholars such as Josephus and others
(who I can't recall at the moment), there are archeological findings
by the reknown archeologial professor Emil(?) Sudenik

I quote from a URL site refering to to Suseniks findings

An ossuary, found near the tomb of "Simon Barsabas" (Acts 1:21 & 15:22) is inscribed with the dedication: "[To] Jesus, the Lord." Scholars believe this is the earliest record of Christian faith ever found. The burial cave, where the stone coffin was discovered, was sealed not later than the year 42 A.D., more than a decade before any part of the New Testament was written.

If this buial cave was sealed no later than AD 42, that only 10 years
after Jesus' death at Calvary. That's within "a memory span"
even up todays standards.

BTW "[To]Jesus, the Lord" is highly likely written in Hebrew
which probably states "YESHUA Y'ho" that is the holy name
which is...Yehovah????

idaho

ShaunaC

I watched a fascinating program on the man Jesus about a year ago on TV. While I don't discount that he truly existed, I am coming to the realization that he was probably just another man among many who led a revolt against the Roman Empire.

You have to remember that life for the Jews was simply unbearable under Roman rule. They were, for all intents & purposes, like slaves. Their life expentancy was only about 30-40 years, mainly due to the harsh conditions of working in the fields. On the other hand, the average life of a Roman was considerably longer, about 65-70 years.

The Jews occasionally had someone rise up who wanted to lead a revolt againt the oppression of the Romans. Jesus was more likely just one of many. However he did stand out due to the fact that ancient writings seemed to be fulfilling in him. With people so oppressed and ready for any kind of deliverance, they attached on to Jesus as their Messiah.

Some intersting ideas & points...

Much faith was put into Jesus as the Deliverer from God because he seemed to be fulfilling so much written in the OT. Of one I particularly remember was Jesus riding in on the ass with palm branches. Uuummmm, duh, it was Passover! Palm branches were a part of the celebration, it had nothing to do with Jesus coming into town. Too, there was probably only a handful of followers with him, not a great crowd.

I did find it intersting that even scientists don't discount the miracles, which Christians often point to as proof Jesus was from God. Again you have to remember how oppressed these people really were. 2000 years later we know perfectly well how the mind can control pain and can even go as far as curing our ailments. Could it not be possible that for someone who wanted to believe so badly that Jesus was their Messiah, that they would end up healing themselves out of extreme faith?

Another thought is that people always point to Josephus to prove that Jesus was a real person. But did you know that out of all the writings of Josephus, the mentions of Jesus are relatively few. If he was such a mover & shaker, don't you think it would have been more of a focus? Or could it be that he was just another guy causing some commotion?

I don't think there is much doubt that there was a man named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago. Was he what the Bible portrays him to be? Why is his story so oddly similar to those in other cultures? Could he have been the basis for the others? Not really, maybe he was later created in such a grandious fashion after the stories of others. Could it all be made up as a tool to control the masses by hysteria and a hope like that of the oppressed Jews...a Messiah & Deliverer from the increasingly bad world?

We know for a fact that 6 million people in the world right now are being mislead. What am I talking about! As far as I'm concerned all religion is a crock, a snare & a racket, a tool to control the people, the opium of the masses, so there are billions being duped! Is it so hard to believe, with man so yearning for understanding of his existence and where he is going, that mankind has been mislead for centuries by all forms of religion?

Good question! Unfortunately....not so easy to answer!

Shauna

Tina

Hi Shauna
I found your'scientists dont discount the miracles' statement rather intriguing. As I think it quite differently. These 'miracles' are merely,myth and legend used to perpetuate the divinity of jesus. I have never seen any proof otherwise...do you have some references?
Thanks in advance,Tina

JanH

An ossuary, found near the tomb of "Simon Barsabas" (Acts 1:21 & 15:22) is inscribed with the dedication: "[To] Jesus, the Lord." Scholars believe this is the earliest record of Christian faith ever found. The burial cave, where the stone coffin was discovered, was sealed not later than the year 42 A.D., more than a decade before any part of the New Testament was written.

Well, I never heard about this before now. A search on the net found no other references than an obscure "Jerusalem Christian Post" web site making the claims you quote: See http://www.securesite.net/ss2ad/past/main910.html

There are countless examples of Christian frauds, making up evidence where there is none. While I don't want to dismiss out of hand such a thing, I think it's extremly suspicious if such a remarkable found would not become more widely known, and in more credible sources.

Another article to the same effect can be found here: http://www.nhbccares.net/jcr_part2.htm I don't know about you, but to me it's hard to imagine any story having a stronger smell of fraud.

The use of Prof. Sukenik's name does not easen this suspicion. Sukenik was one of the first archeologists to learn about the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947. He was an old man then, if I'm not much mistaken, and he's very unlikely to be alive still. The finds are nowehere dated. Famous name and the absense of actual details of where and when does not sound credible to me.

- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein

JanH

They were, for all intents & purposes, like slaves. Their life expentancy was only about 30-40 years, mainly due to the harsh conditions of working in the fields. On the other hand, the average life of a Roman was considerably longer, about 65-70 years.

This is just nonsense. Those who made this TV programme must have been very ignorant of history. The average life expectancy was nowhere in the world as high as 40 in the ancient world. Most likely it was around 21-22 in both places, which is the same as it was in the Stone Age, and what it still was everywhere in the world until around 1600, when there began a gradual increase in Europe due to better food supply.

Source: Ascardi, George and J. Nemeskeri. 1970. History of Human Life Span and Mortality. Budapest: Akademiai Kiado.

Roman control of Palestine was reasonable lax. Romans rarely interfered in local politics, but wanted to keep law and order. In this time and age, most everyone were slaves under those who owned the land.

Like always in history, it wasn't the poor who opposed the foreign rule, it was thise who had something to lose: the (small but important) middle class.

- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein

ShaunaC

Hi Tina! My point about the miracles was that they really weren't miracles at all. There are other explanations, I noted just one. Of course, these were exagerated upon and shown to be a sign that Jesus was from God.

Jan...sorry, but I recall Jesus being 33 1/2 years old when he died. I agree that 40 was probably too high. I was just providing a span. Now if you want to say that the Bible is completely inaccurate in saying that anyone including Jesus could have lived to 33 1/2 years old or beyond, no problem with me. I am quickly arriving at the thinking that the Bible is just full of myths & parables anyway. If the Bible is so wrong on this minor point, it's no big surprise...I consider it wrong on a whole hosts of things more important.

Makes no difference to me. Just relating what I saw! SORRY!

Shauna

JanH

Jan...sorry, but I recall Jesus being 33 1/2 years old when he died. I agree that 40 was probably too high. I was just providing a span. Now if you want to say that the Bible is completely inaccurate in saying that anyone including Jesus could have lived to 33 1/2 years old or beyond, no problem with me.

Uh, Shauna, if you really don't know what the word "average" means, I can surely explain it.

- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein

ShaunaC

Jan, please don't condescend to me. That's not what I'm here for. I told you I was just relating what I saw. If I'm not allowed to do that or even put stuff out that's flip-flopping in my head without being told that I'm essentially an idiot, then perhaps I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.

And...putting a smiley face at the end of your sentence really doesn't cut it. If you were indeed just teasing, then I apologize for coming back at you like this, but you might want to learn some tact, especially with people who don't know you.

Shauna (who apologizes for any offense or stupidity)

trevor

Uncle,

I think that those of the Christian persuasion would expect you to ask -
Does Christ exist rather that -'Did he.'
Don't shoot I'm going to die anyway!

Did Christ exist?

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