Only one "God" trinitarians?

by Anastasis 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Anastasis

Undishfellowshipped,
A bit more for you before I will be gone for a few days. Now the topic is Christ and if we start up from the logic point, the Father is God. Jesus appears on the stage in the NT. From where? Luke 1:35 tells us that God "overshadowed" and a child was born. That is it. That is where we start off from.
I will comment some of the verses you bring up here;
Isaiah 42:8: I am Jehovah; that is My Name; and I will not give My Glory to another
This is supposed to be a proof text of Jesus being God. Of cause this speaks of Gods glory that he will always keep. Consider;
1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Does God ever give his "own glory" to Jesus? No, never. Just an example for you to consider.
Im tempted to discuss this verse with you too;
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Now does God not acknowledge other gods than him? Of cause he does;
Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. (.) 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
He even calls them his children. What is obscured by modern tradition is that to say something like there is only one god is the same as saying that there is only one strong being. Its an absurdity at face value from human point, but it makes sense comparetively and from Gods perspective it is true as none can match him. God is the Most High or the only "true God".
That is the way Scripture should be read, tongue in cheeck and finding the over all context and topic.
Another thing is the how many Lords/Gods issue. It was no problem for the Jews in the OT to have more than one Lord;
1 Kings 1:37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.
As God is considered higher than Lord, Paul says the following;
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
On a singel basis, God may also be called Lord and Jesus also be called God, although that is in fact very rare in the Bible. Lord is one you serve, God is a mighty being. I think it is ok to call them both both these titles.
You also list the following verses;
[Matthew 24:30: And then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear in the Heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man Coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and much Glory. (See Daniel 7:13)
Matthew 25:31: But when the Son of Man Comes in His Glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His Glory.]
To which I reply;
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Do you think this is a literal throne? Some throne then, both God, Jesus and all the saints will sit on it. No, of cause not, it is a symbol of power.
Another one;
[WHO is the "Rock of Offense" and the "Stone of Stumbling"?
Isaiah 8:13: Yahweh of Hosts, Him shall you sanctify; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
Isaiah 8:14: He shall be for a Sanctuary; but for a Stone of Stumbling and for a Rock of Offense to both the houses of Israel, for a Gin and for a Snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
1st Peter 2:6: Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Chief Cornerstone, Elect, Precious: He who believes in Him will not be disappointed."
1st Peter 2:7: For you therefore who believe is the honor, but for such as are disobedient, "The Stone which the builders rejected, Has become the Chief Cornerstone,"
1st Peter 2:8: and, "A Stone of Stumbling, and a Rock of Offense." For they stumble at the Word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.]
How about;
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God is not a human being of flesh and bones, but the human being Jesus manifested God. He was one with him in Spirit. Thus they are both stumbling stones, they were both crucified, but only Jesus in a literal sense, God in a symbolic sense.
Last one for now;
[Joshua 5:13: And it happened, when Joshua was beside Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked. And, behold! A Man stood in front of him, and His drawn sword was in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our foes?
Joshua 5:14: And He said, No, for I now come as the Commander of the Army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the Earth and worshiped. And he said to Him, What does my Lord speak to His slave?
Joshua 5:15: And the Commander of the Army of Jehovah said to Joshua, Take your shoe off your foot, for the place on which you are standing is Holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 6:1: And Jericho was closed, and was shut in from the face of the sons of Israel; no one going out, and no one coming in.
Joshua 6:2: And Jehovah said to Joshua, See I have given Jericho and its king, mighty warriors, into your hand.]
1. There is nothing that proofs that 5:15 and 6:1 is the same conversation, 2. Angels are messengers, they speak on Gods behalf not themselves. A good example to bring this out of the world is Judges 6, verse 20 and onward where the angel of the LORD talks to Gideon and after he disappears, God continues to talk to Gideon. God does not need to speak through a visible angel in order to communicate with people.
Judges 6:20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so. 21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. 22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face. 23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. 24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
The Hebrew word used for worship in Joshua 5 is shacach. The excact same word is used here;
Genesis 23:7 And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself (shacach) to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.
So Abraham also worshipped these people if Joshua worshipped the angel, it is the same word. Dont mix translators inventions with what the Bible says.
Again, consider the worship of David;
1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
The distinction between bowing to and worshipping is an unbiblical concept.
God Bless

Edited by - Anastasis on 12 October 2002 7:10:0
pomegranate

Worship is giving glory, praise and honor to another.
Rev 5:13-14
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
The Father and Jesus BOTH being WORSHIPPED.
Is Jesus WORTHY to recieve WORSHIP?
Rev 5:12
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
Does God ever give his "own glory" to Jesus?
Well then with whose glory is the Father giving here?
John 8:54
My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
What glory is Father giving the Son here? Someone elses? Surely, if Jesus says the Father is glorifying him, it is the Father's glory that is being given to Jesus. COMMON SENSE. And again:
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Father certainly has to be giving Jesus glory here too. Father gives his glory to Jesus. Jesus gives his glory to Father.
They are BOTH glorious.
UnDisfellowshipped

AMEN to pomegranate!
Also, with this Scripture you posted pomegranate:
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I believe you have just proved that Jesus Christ most certainly did exist BEFORE He was Born on Earth.
Otherwise, I have no idea how anyone could explain this Verse.
UnDisfellowshipped

Also, I would like to show everyone that:
JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT, AS WELL AS THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EVERYTHING IN IT!
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2: He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3: All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
John 1:11: He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Colossians 1:12: giving thanks to the Father, who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the Saints in light;
Colossians 1:13: who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love;
Colossians 1:14: in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;
Colossians 1:15: who is the Image of the Invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Colossians 1:18: He is the Head of the Body, the Assembly, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19: For all the Fullness of the Father was pleased to dwell in Him;
Colossians 1:20: and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on the Earth, or things in the Heavens, having made peace through the Blood of His Cross.
Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows."
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:11: They will perish, but You continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
Hebrews 1:12: As a mantle You will roll them up, And they will be changed; But You are the Same. Your years will not fail."
Genesis 1:26: God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the Earth."
Genesis 1:27: God created man in His own Image. In God's Image He created him; male and female He created them.
Anastasis

Pomegranate,
" John 8:54 My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
What glory is Father giving the Son here? Someone elses? Surely, if Jesus says the Father is glorifying him, it is the Father's glory that is being given to Jesus. COMMON SENSE. And again:
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Father certainly has to be giving Jesus glory here too. Father gives his glory to Jesus. Jesus gives his glory to Father."
- Rather a case of extraordinary misunderstanding. The Father's own glory means the glory he himselfs receives and possesses, not the one he gives lol. It is a bit like I having money yet Im able to give money to other people. There is no problem as such if Jesus receives the same glory as God, if God wished it so and being the loving father he is, but it is not so. God glorified Solomon in this way;
1 Chronicles 29:25 And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
Christ even receives higher glory than this. As the verse in Phil. 2:11, the WORSHIP (worship being a made up modern word just as God) given to Jesus is to the glory of God himself. Micah 5:4 says Jesus will reign in the name of Yahweh, his God. John 8:54 tells the same as 17:3; Jesus is not the true God. To ask if he is then a false God, is an unbiblical question because the Bible doesn't work that way. We have Gods that are pro or contra YAHWEH, but he alone is the true God as he, atleast up to Christ's resurrection, upholded Christ's life aswell as any other God either of spirit or stone.

Secondly there's John 17:5. Now that one is a clear lesson in how God thinks. Consider;
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Now God calls things that are not as if they were because he knows they will be. If Jesus pre-existed due to John 17:5, so did Jeremiah. God knew them both and their destiny, the later Messianic King, the image of God / the visible God. I hope I solve Undishfellowshipped's problem then, because the verse is nothing more than a lesson in predestination and divine purpose.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 14 October 2002 21:7:29
Anastasis

UnDisfellowshipped,
You make the claim that Christ did create the Universe!! That is some claim for sure.
Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
In the light of the above verses alone I find that idea totally impossible. Not only that Jesus started his life / existence in Bethlehem but also that the Jesus, whom many Trinitarians identify himself with Yahweh in John 8:58, does speak of the Creator as another person.
Jesus makes it quit clear than he is not Yahweh;
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
That does not sound like the Creator to me.
As for John 1, this is a personification of the Word of God proceeding from the Father and becoming flesh, which is an OT phrase for becoming man (or animal). Two essential verses;
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Surely Jesus came out of Heaven, he came from God, this man was on a mission for sure. The Word of God is the one God creates with according to Genesis 1 and in Ps. 33:6; 9 we have the essential indentification of Gods Word; "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made (.) For he spake, and it was done..". So we are indeed dealing with words coming out of Gods mouth (Isa. 55:11 again), not a being. That word became flesh in the Lamb Jesus, and that is what John 1 tells us and personifies.
Then you touch Colossians 1. As for verses 15 and 16, it is possible as the KJV to say "by him" but it is just as possible, as almost any other Bibles does, to say "in him". In him and for him captures the whole point of these verses about the Son God loves.
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
With a prober understanding of predestination and Gods purpose we are quit able to make perfect Biblical sense out of the above statement. In/through the sacrifice of Christ, the world will be brought into harmony with God as God planned and knew from the beginning that the world would become one day. All will one day be reconciled because those that are not children of God will be wiped out finally.
Then we get to Hebrews 1. Verses 8-9 are indeed quit different to 10-12. The God of verses 8-9 has a God as we read, "your God", and that is quit understandable as the subordinate God is King Solomon. People would be helped here if the God of verses 8 were rendered "mighty one" while we for traditions sake kept the God title in verse 9. The apostle then makes it apply to the last and highest Davidic King, the Lord Jesus.
Verses 10-12 are not directed to either Solomon or Jesus. They are the words of a believer to Yahweh, not Yahwehs words to the Davidic King. Here it really helps to consider the quoted verses. When we overlook the whole structure of Hebrews 1, it all becomes reasonable. The apostle is the one speaking here, and he fittingly calls God "you", after he quoted Gods words to the Davidic King. Like in other places, the apostles finds it fitting to praise God after he praised the David King, which to the apostle is Jesus not Solomon. That way we can understand the chapter harmonous. Verse 4 is a strong indication that Jesus never earlier on had a name higher than angels outside Gods mind as he inherited that name by his sacrifice and verse 4 tells us that God made the ages/worlds (Greek "aion") by Jesus, through the predestinated sacrifice on the cross.
Genesis 1:26-27 is some verses that have given room to lots of speculation. Yet it is speculation because the OT is utterly silent of whom God could have spoken too, although we know angels were present in the creation (Job 38:7). That is all we are told about them. It is clearly not the subject or consideration of that chapter to tell us who God spoke to. The thing to note here is that the Highest being, the Creator is one person. Note; "Us make man in Our Image, after Our Likeness (..) God created man in His own Image..". So the Creator is one.
When man is in Gods image and Jesus the image of God, it doesnt require much fantasy to suggest that angels are that too. Commentators suggest that God speaks to them, as his all present servants. Others suggest the pluralis majestaetis "We the King". Jews though, have traditionally understood this as God speaking to nature. Note; "and the earth brought forth.." (Gen. 1:12). That is hard for a western mind to understand but note that God creates with his voice (which again COULD suggest that he used angels giving them commands, the verses that say God creates alone means nothing in this context, because that means that he created by his own power and not by the help of Gods equal or higher than him). That God creates with his voice is equally hard for us to understand as God talking to the earth, but it might be the intended meaning God did form man of the dust (Gen. 2:7). I like than explenation however odd to my western mind because it doesnt add anything and makes sense with Gen. 2:7.
It is easy to show that men were not made in the image of Gods Son, because that is only the saints;
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Again, the Son is person that is in existence in the NT and forward, not in the OT. He did after all start his life in Betlehem.
God Bless
Anastasis

Undishfellowshipped,
One final thing before I will let you comment. It puzzles me how you seem to use the OT against the NTs teaching of God and Jesus. As there is no Jesus speaking to people in the OT how could you then expect Yahweh to speak of him in the OT? This enormous difference between OT and NT is shown here;
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
This is so fundamental that the mediator of the covenant is no longer the Law but a being. There is no such mediator in the OT and thus all this backward-reasoning you have showed like "who searches the hearts" or "who is alone to "worshipped/honoured" " etc... is bad because it goes against context. I might add that to bow to Solomon or Jesus would be honouring (or this alienated word "worshipping") God, as it pleases him that men honours his temples. There is no man who went up to Heaven as mediator in the OT. There is only the Law between God and man. Now God has made Christ his image and given him divine powers, we should not question that he has that ability and the verses from Hebrews surely tells that.
Christ is never prayed to in the OT but he is spoken to in a number of cases. Stephen sees his mediator in a vision and speaks to him and Paul spoke to him. Angels speak to people throughout the Bible. Christ receives prayers but as he teaches in Matthew 6:8-9 we are to pray to the Father. Christ is the mediator. God, the Father is not the mediator.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 14 October 2002 20:42:14
Edited by - Anastasis on 14 October 2002 20:44:7
Jeremiah Lee

Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 15 October 2002 3:28:44
Jeremiah Lee

Why do you think Jesus would be calling on Jesus AS He was being stoned? Does it really matter if you are speaking to someone in a 'vision' or whether not seen? No. Note that he is requesting of Jesus to recieve his spirit, NOT the 'Father in Jesus' name'.
...And how about that Jn1:10..cf..vs12 thing? Who's "name"? The Word's 'name'. Does the 'Word' have a name on which to believe? Yes. Jesus. And just remember that we aren't speaking of the "new" world in vs10 unless you want to also believe that the "new world" "Knew Him not..."
btw, I was just browsing this forum to snag someone's avatar, so this is my last post. Food for thought though. If any of you Trinitarians want some advice, give me a hollar here [email protected] . If I don't know it, I'll find someone who does.
God bless--Lee
Jeremiah Lee

Oops, one more.
Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12 Whose feet? Jesus' And if they resort to the "namebearing angel" (whom I believe to be God the Son) then simply ask them why no other angel, man, or (especially) prophet enacts this "name-bearing"? Mm? I can think of people being called "god" but not where a person has to "..take of your shoes as the ground you stand upon is Holy". Can you?
See Heb1:10 where the Father addresses the Son as YHWH. Note the Greek word 'kai' that connects the two Hebrew quotes. "But unto the Son He [YHWH] says...Your throne....<kai> [and] .....you LORD in the beginning..." See the picture? He's quoting BOTH quotes in reference to the Son. Don't let 'em go for the "interjectory praise' thing as it merely emphasizes God's 'eternality'.
God bless--Lee

Only one "God" trinitarians?

JESUS CHRIST IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT, AS WELL AS THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EVERYTHING IN IT!

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