Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate 145 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Zechariah

  REM,

  This idea of 99% of all species dying out is nothing more than saying 99% of all the people that ever lived are dead. So What. The fact remains God created man for a temporary life. There are more people and more varieties (species) of life than ever before existing at the same time.

  Here is my analogy. I am alive. There is no one else exactly like me. I am a species unto myself. When I die the world wll suffer my loss. The world will mourn my passage forever. But not so you'll say and you would be right. Someone though not the same but as good or better than me will arrive shortly. It is God and not evolution we have to thank for that.

  You are trying to make yourself right by manipulating and distorting the scriptures. This is an underhanded tactic used by the originator of the words you quoted from the Bible. It was Satan, the father of the lie and the great deceiver that said this. Certainly God was not going to make men Gods as you described with the right to criticize him as you are doing. This was the same folly Job was chastized for. Stop perpetuating Satans lie. You are being totally disingenuous though you obviously do not care about disrespecting God by implying he gives you the right to do so.

  Zechariah
• 

  rem

  Zech,

  This idea of 99% of all species dying out is nothing more than saying 99% of all the people that ever lived are dead. So What. The fact remains God created man for a temporary life. There are more people and more varieties (species) of life than ever before existing at the same time.

  No it is not. You believe that god specially created every single species. He allowed these species to die out until now less that 1% of all species that have ever existed are alive. I assume (though I may be wrong) that you believe that humans (and animals) procreate through natural means, and that supernatural interference is not necessary. This means that god is not specially creating every human that lives. If you do believe that every human is specially created in the womb supernaturally, then I am at a loss as to what the whole biological functions of procreation are for.

  The fact remains: 99% of all species that have ever existed on earth are now extinct. If you believe that god created these species, then your god is inneficient, wasteful, and careless with life. If you accept evolutionary theory, then this type of mass extinction is exactly what you would expect to find.

  You are trying to make yourself right by manipulating and distorting the scriptures. This is an underhanded tactic used by the originator of the words you quoted from the Bible. It was Satan, the father of the lie and the great deceiver that said this. Certainly God was not going to make men Gods as you described with the right to criticize him as you are doing

  Am I twisting the scriptures? Yes, Satan did say this... but God also confirmed it here:

  Genesis 3:21,22
  21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

  rem
• 

  Know_You

  Come on pomegranate, my man! You are giving Creationists a bad name through your ill conceived and shifting arguments. The whole basis of the probability argument rests on the mistaken notion that the lifeforms we see on Earth are the only ones possible, even in principle! As I demonstrated earlier, the odds that you were born are so miniscule that clearly you must have been not born at all but created directly by God - as Zechariah seems to think he was - although given his Gladstonian "weakness" it is a bit odd that special creation would hardwire in such apalling defects. But, with Avogadro's number being as big as it is much is possible - do you know Sir pomegranate how big that number is and what it means?

  I strongly suggest you consult my excellent essay if you really are desirous of doing real damage to the evolutionist's cause by your focussing on the facts. The facts man! The facts.

  Explain to them why trilobites once dominated and then became extinct. Rub the facts in their faces. Provide a concise explanation for why 99% of the creatures that God created are now extinct - thrown into the dustbin of history, no doubt for their failings of the flesh. Explain why there used to be dinosaurs and sabre-toothed tigers but that there are none now, whereas mammals that we have now they did not have then. What a confusing world it can be. But not for you - Baffle 'em with your ready grasp of the data as you explain how it could be that the worm C. elegans and humans both feature a gene that renders each susceptible to the wonders of prozac. That the genetic code of the loathsome and flea ridden mus musculus and the upstanding Christian man are pretty much the same.

  And, my dear fellow, while you're at it, shower them with sharply shaped explanations as to how the vast diversity of life - including the predilection of kangaroos for the antipodes - arose so swiftly after Noah's flood - that fine, nostalgic day when God destroyed all heathen miscreants in a mighty and terrible day of judgment - stay tuned, for a second installment of Divine Vengeance is coming to a neihboorhood near you. An historic moment yet in the future. LOL.

  Hope that helps,

  \Know_You
• 

  mevirginia

  Explain why there used to be dinosaurs and sabre-toothed tigers but that there are none now,

  I would like to know why God made saber-toothed tigers. They couldn't possibly romp around with goats eating grass, could they? With those teeth? That must have been the biggest blood bath in history. shivers....me/
• 

  LucidSky

  The biggest threat to (the Christian) God isn't evolution... it's morality. Whether you're a special creationist or theistic evolutionist, why would God create carnivorous animals before sin was ever introduced into the universe?

  Edited by - LucidSky on 20 October 2002 18:57:14
• 

  LucidSky

  Edited by - LucidSky on 20 October 2002 18:55:30
• 

  patio34

  Hi LucidSky,

  you said

  The biggest threat to (the Christian) God isn't evolution... it's morality. Whether you're a special creationist or theistic evolutionist, why would God create carnivorous animals before sin was ever introduced into the universe?

  That is the fatal flaw, imo, to the whole house of cards of theism. That point--violence in nature--is what finally enabled me to leave the JWs. Well put.

  Pat
• 

  Zechariah

  REM,

  No it is not.

  Not what? Not more species at one time than ever before. Can you offer an explanation why it would not be though it really is not important.

  You believe that god specially created every single species. He allowed these species to die out until now less that 1% of all species that have ever existed are alive. I assume (though I may be wrong) that you believe that humans (and animals)procreate through natural means, and that supernatural interference is not necessary.

  This means that god is not specially creating every human that lives. If you do believe that every human is specially created in the womb supernaturally, then I am at a loss as to what the whole biological functions of procreation are for.

  The fact remains: 99% of all species that have ever existed on earth are now extinct. If you believe that god created these species, then your god is inneficient, wasteful, and careless with life. If you accept evolutionary theory, then this type of mass extinction is exactly what you would expect to find.

  The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Again I ask you what universes have you created lately? Who are you the creation to tell the creator what he can do with that which he created. God can tell you not to kill but is not subject to the laws he created specifically for the creation. Whatever death or tragedy God allows us to suffer as he did with Job he can and has promised to restore more greatly after than before. Only if one endues in their faith.

  You keep harping on God specially creating everything. None of this is important to the main reality of the original cause. Satisfying ourselves one way or another about this doesnt change the requirement of a original cause. Just for the heck of it though I will give you my opinion on
  the questions you raised.
  

  • The world of the spirit has active participation in everything in life. All things physical is the hardware and all things spiritual is the software telling the hardware when, what, where, why and how to do things. Man appears only to be acting from his own perspective independently but it is only artificial intelligence of a highly sophisticated kind. Spirits are the producers, directors, and all the behind the scenes people in Gods Grand Drama of life.

    The are always on the job and attentive to detail not distracted by any physical demands like sleeping and eating. There are angels no doubt assigned to overseeing the reproductive process of every child thats born as well as every spiritual or physical law or force in life . The Creator knows how to delegate authority well. He has to do nothing himself. You need to stop judging things from a fleshly viewpoint and tap into your spiritual insight in the likeness of God and maybe you can resist being so critical.

  • God the Bible tells us created the animals according to their kinds. Prior to the flood of Noahs day Noah was instructed to take 2 of every kind of animals and 7 of some special kinds. It was not species but kinds. He didn't have to take lions, tigers, domestic cats, etc. Just two cats. He didn't have to take two lizards or two reptiles and two dinosaurs but rather two of whatever kind the particular species of dinosaurs fell into. Being that conserving space on the ark was so important Noah surely would have selected the smallest varieties to put on board.

  • If you wish to call variations among kinds and species evolution be my guest. I have no objection. Only when there is an attempt to deny the ongoing participation of God and the world of the spirit in the process and life in general. As mysterious as this all sounds any objective intelligent person would come if willing to believe to the conclusion this is how of necessity it has to be.

  
  

  Am I twisting the scriptures? Yes, Satan did say this... but God also confirmed it here:
  Genesis 3:21,22
  21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
  rem

  It is not what you or Satan said that was the lie. It was what was meant. How was it being interpreted. Satan meant to imply something he knew well was not what God meant when he said they become like us, knowing good and evil.
  In a effort to let God be found true I would interpret what God meant as breaking the only law God ever gave man he now could understand what it was to be in Gods disfavor. Works for me.

  Zechariah
• 

  crownboy

  pomegranate, you don't seem to get the point.

  Since Morowitz's calculations were meant for organisms in a world at thermal equilibrium, and the earth is not that type of world, his info on this subject is useless to the topic at hand (HINT: what you quoted is not the theorectically minimal "simple" system that can be had here in this system that is not at thermal equilibrium). I would suggest that you do some reading from real scientific sources (and not just out of context stuff cut and pasted from dishonest creationist ones), as I believe it would be of great educational value to you.
• 

  pomegranate

  You are absolutely INCORRECT.

  This is what Morowitz WAS and IS all about:

  From one of his more recent abstracts;

  Biogenesis and Evolution are viewed from the perspective of the universality of the metabolic chart with respect to primary metabolism and the phylogenetic specificity of secondary metabolism. This analysis is developed within the context of the evolution of the universal ancestor through hierarchical networks of chemical reactions.

  The reason behind his theoretical smallest biological entity WAS TO SUPPORT EVOLUTION. By theorizing a less complex free living thing makes it more possible.

  That's horse biscuits.