What "Two Witness" Rule?

by Amazing 47 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing

  Someone please show me where the Watchtower Society has stated, in cases of serious sin, the rule that requires "Two Witnesse" to the event or act! At best, One or Two Witnesses are Preferred! PERIOD ... but if there are NO witnesses, then other evidence can be presented to witnesses or the Elders. After I reviewed this, I rervisited and found that "IslandWoman" posted an excellent essay properly quoting the book, Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry which replaced the book, Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple-Making. (See IW's thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=29405&site=3)

  I could not find the older book, Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple-Making in my things ... but if someone can review their Watchtower CD ROM and post the chapter from it called "Safeguarding the Cleaness of the Congregation," then please do, for I would like to see the context ... but in all fairness, I believe that somehow, the Two Witness rule that has been pounded on is simply not suported by either of these books. If the older Organization" book does not support it, then I have to ask why we have had the discussions about this rule that seems to be so undocumented?

  So far the only place I can find any mention of "One or Two Witnesses" has to do with Matthew 18 steps to resolve personal differences and some serious sins like fraud or slander between two people ... but nothing is stated that demands that the Elders in Judicial Committee hearings must have two witnesses.

  Also, many are confused about the meaning of "witnesses" believing this requires a human eye-witness ... in matters of law, even in Bible times, evidence of any kind also serves as a "Witness" ... in modern law, a photograph, a tape recording, DNA, blood stains, semen all serve as "Evidence" ... and thus as a "Witness" ... nonetheless, the issue I am getting at is where the Society has demanded this in Judicial cases, or cases involving molestation victims ...

  PS: I am aware that BOE letters may be behind the "Two Witness" rule ... but I will address those later.

  Thanks to whomever can post it for me.

  Edited by - Amazing on 13 October 2002 0:19:28
• 

  gumby

  If a person is accused of being a pedophile, and they deny the charge, they are considered innocent until proven guilty. This works to the pedophiles advantage, as the requirement for two witnesses means to the same event, not two separate occasions. In the unusual event a pedophile was accused by two children in the same week, it might be considered as a basis for a judicial committee but anything outside of this in the face of a denial will allow the accused pedophile to remain an innocent man. (11/15/95 WT)

  See if this works Jim.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Gumby: You wrote:

  as the requirement for two witnesses means to the same event, not two separate occasions.

  You then noted the 11/15/95 WT. Were you quoting the Watchtower article or simply making a statement and then citing the magazine? I don't recall that article and am just trying to clarify. Thanks
• 

  gumby

  I copy and pasted a portion from silentlambs site. I'm still looking
• 

  qwerty

  Amazing

  I have looked through the WT CD, now realising that the organisation book is not to be found. I remember now why, because it is a publication only for "publishers". I guess the Gov borgy don't want just anyone to read it, as they would if it was on the CDROM.

  I tried sorry, anyone got a scan?

  Qwerty
• 

  happy man

  perhaps i can answer this.

  i have a book ,your word is a lamp to my foot, printed 1967.

  I ths book they have this two wittneses roul site 175-177.

  also in the book preatching and teatching in peace and unity, you have this roul, printed 1960,so i think this is an old thing, this two books do you have when you was baptised
• 

  izobcenec

  Pay attention to yourselves and all the flock, p.108
  
  Other cases of serious wrongdoing require special atten-
  tion by the elders in order to determine what is needed to help the repentant wrongdoer and to preserve the
  spiritual health of all in the congregation.

  These include such sins as adultery, fornication, apostasy,
  and drunkenness. (See Unit 5 (a), pages 92-6.)

  Before forming a committee, elders determine if the accu-
  sation has substance.

  It must Scripturally be an offense serious enough to
  result in disfellowshipping.

  There must be either two witnesses or a confession of
  wrongdoing.

  If there is not enough evidence to form a committee
  but serious questions have been raised, two elders may
  be assigned to investigate the matter.

  If a judicial committee is needed, elders who are present at
  the Kingdom Hall should determine which elders will
  serve on the committee and which one will be chairman.

  ...

  What kind of evidence is acceptable?
  There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons
  repeating what they have heard; no action can be taken if
  there is only one witness. (Deut. 19:15;Jol1ll 8:17)

  Confession (admission of wrongdoing), either written or
  oral, may be accepted as conclusive proof without other
  corroborating evidence. (Josh. 7:19)

  Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy or evi-
  dence (testified to by at least two witnesses) that the
  accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of
  the opposite sex (or in the same house with a known
  homosexual ) under improper circumstances, is acceptable.

  The testimony of youths may be considered; it is up to
  the elders to determine if the testimony has the ring of
  truth.

  The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered, but
  it must be carefully weighed.

  If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of
  wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident,
  their testimony can be considered.

  Such evidence may be used to establish guilt, but it is
  preferable to have two witnesses to the same occurrence
  of wrongdoing.
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Hello, Amazing

  For your reading pleasure:

  the facts must be substantiated by two or three witnesses in these serious matters.--Keeping the Congregation Clean, Your Word is a Lamp to My Foot 1967: 178

  For a matter to be established as true, there must be two or three witnesses.--Safeguarding the Cleanness of the Congregation, subheading: Hearings Before the Judicial Committee, Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple Making 1972: 164
• 

  gumby

  Well,

  I guess the question was anwered. Was this what you needed JIM?
• 

  Amazing

  Thanks Gumby and everyone. The above helps.

  Now what I need is the full context of the older 1972 Organization book to see how the rule is applied. The 1983 "Organized" book does not require two or three, but one or two witnesses are "preferred" and only in a Matthew 18 setting ... nothing is required in other scenarios. The new book superceded the older book, so the pedophile policy could not have been based on the 1972 book. The Flock book is even more recent than the 1983 "Organized" book, at least any copy I am familiar with.

  Marvin: What is the fuller context of the 1972 Organization book text you quoted ... I don't mean to type it word for word ... but is it under the context of any Matthew 18 discussion, or is it in some other context? ... what is the rule fully about? Thanks for your help.