Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    What do you think Jesus did for the thirty years not written about, if Paul, the christian says .

    "If any one does not provide...especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith..."

    Jesus clearly said

    "For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.' But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Hey joe

    Know_you is doing satire. Reading his other posts will show this.

    SS

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    To me Christ's life was an example of love. Everything he did he did for others. He never shunned anyone. He saw too his mom's care, he converted at least one of his fleshly brothers, he stayed at home and helped his dad in the family business until he was thirty, he was a great son. Telling someone to come and follow him didn't mean they didn't speak to their parents. In fact Christ urged them to be loving to their parents and to all men. Christ told them the two greatest commandments were to love god and to love their fellow man. My favorite example is Matthew 15 quoted below. It shows very well his attitude toward those who do not love and honor their parents, showing that worship without this love is hypocritical. I think the verses quoted below show his love not only for his parents but for all men, as is summed up in his answer to John in the last verse. I looked mostly in Matthew, I am sure given a little time I could do better. Weeping for a friend, commending the father whose daughter he healed, feeding the poor after his sermon, his advice to Martha ( I think it was) about picking the important things. In all of his life, it seems to me, he reflected love towards everyone he was around, even asking forgiveness for his murderers. Can you give me an instance where he shunned anyone??? He spoke to those who had become apostates and dealt with them, even teaching in their churches. Can you give an instance where he shunned someone???

    Matthew 15:3 In reply he said to them: "Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, Honor your father and your mother; and, Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death. 5 But YOU say, Whoever says to his father or mother: "Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God," 6 he must not honor his father at all. And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines

    Mark 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" 18 Jesus said to him: "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. 19 You know the commandments, Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother

    35 And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, You must love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

    Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him: "Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him: "I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times.

    Matthew 11:

    2 But John, having heard in jail about the works of the Christ, sent by means of his own disciples 3 and said to him: "Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?" 4 In reply Jesus said to them: "Go YOUR way and report to John what YOU are hearing and seeing: 5 The blind are seeing again, and the lame are walking about, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, and the dead are being raised up, and the poor are having the good news declared to them; 6 and happy is he that finds no cause for stumbling in me."

    Jesus was pro love. Pro family love. Pro love of God. Pro love of your enemies, pro love period. In his prayers he reflects that love, read them again sometime. His mom and his aunt were at his execution. In his dying moments he made sure that that his mom was taken care of by trying to see that his death didn't deprive her of the help and support of the son she was losing. In an age when old people lived with their children, she chose to live with the person he asked to take care of her, no doubt she was made to feel loved and welcome in his home, as Christ intended.

    25 By the torture stake of Jesus, however, there were standing his mother and the sister of his mother; Mary the wife of Clo'pas, and Mary Mag'dalene. 26 Therefore Jesus, seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing by, said to his mother: "Woman, see! Your son!" 27 Next he said to the disciple: "See! Your mother!" And from that hour on the disciple took her to his own home.

    I think that concern for his mom, for his physical well being, even at a time when giant events were taking place and he himself was gasping his last breaths, speaks to just how much he loved his parents.

    Grunt

  • Know_You
    Know_You

    The tongue of a lying viper - you started by talking about Friends and Family. Now it is merely FAMILY, and close family at that! That's because your filimentary argument has been tied up in knots. As a practicing Jew Jesus had to respect the Law which demanded honor for family - it was a given. Otherwise Jesus would have had that charge thrown at him by the rabid Jews of the 1st century. It is rather amazing that this revelation of Jesus' hard loathing of family has had to wait for Mr Alward to appear on the world secene - rather like a a bad tempered, screaming, red faced ant facing an onrushing locomotive and yelling STOP!

    Why is it Mr Alward that it's taken you this long to stumble upon your tremendous recidivist insight. Are you really such a slow learner or are you one of the slithering mass of apostate doggery here to foment trouble and mislead ? I suspect the former. LOL.

    Know_You

    Edited by - Know_You on 14 October 2002 22:19:18

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest JosephAlward... may you have peace.

    I would like to respond to your assertion, if you will permit me. Thank you.

    In some manner, you are correct: my Lord did not "promote" the type of love you are referring to between "family" members and "friends," for quite a good reason: in TRUTH, red hemoglobin does not make one family... or friend. Just because one is related to us by blood does not make such one "family", in the eyes of my Father and my Lord. "Family"... and "friends", then, would be those who PROVE themselves such, unlike Cain... who killed his own blood brother.

    My Lord indeed came to put a "sword," because those who love... and those who hate... may often been in the same "family" (as you understand that word). However, to HIM... "family" and "brothers" are those who love God, love him, love one another, love their neighbors... and even love their enemies.

    In many a family (as you understand that word) today, there is MUCH more hatred than there is love... and it is because of the Christ that it is so: there are those who hate those who love... because their own hearts are wicked. For example, the WTBTS's teaching to shun: if you were a JW and you, due to LOVE... chose to even speak to one THEY considered unworthy... YOU... would be hated. Why? Because you softened your heart, had pity on an estranged soul... and spoke. Nothing more.

    Now, you've concerned yourself with whether or not my Lord showed love to his family; I tell truly that indeed he did: to his "brother" Lazarus, and "sisters" Martha and Mary; to his "brothers" Simon, John, Matthew, Barnabas, etc., etc., and certainly to his mother and "sister", Mary. With regard to his brothers in the flesh, however, if you recall it was THEY who initially ridiculed HIM... and treated HIM with contempt. However, he did not forget them, for when they later CAME to love him... he did not withhold my Father's spirit from upon them either, but forgave their treatment of him.

    So, I say to you, as did my Lord: "Who IS my mother and who ARE my brothers?" It was not necessarily those who just so happened to be born of same woman as he, who had the same bloodtype and similar DNA. Rather, it was... and is... those with the same type of TYPE of LOVE... and similar "heart". Flesh... with its blood... does not a brother make, truly. LOVE... makes a brother, dear one. May you have ears to hear.

    Again, I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    GRUNT wrote,

    "In all of his life, it seems to me, he reflected love towards everyone he was around"

    JOE ALWARD responds:

    No, he did NOT seem to love everyone he was around; he called the Pharisees and Sadduccees "vipers," and was angry that they wanted to be baptized and thus saved:

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? (Matthew 3:7)

    If Jesus was loving of all mankind, he would have been DELIGHTED to have his enemies show up to be baptized by him, wouldn't he?

    Furthermore, Jesus wanted his message of salvation to be HIDDEN from all but the chosen ones, so he spoke in parables, so only the ones he WANTED to be saved would understand his message . According to the authors of Matthew and Mark, these parables were not meant to be understood by anyone other than "the lost sheep of Israel". Jesus told these parables to prevent the Gentiles from understanding the word of God, and thereby prevent their entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Mark Said Jesus' Parables Mystified Outsiders

    Following Jesus' parable about the sower of seeds, Mark has Jesus tell his disciples that he wants to make sure only his followers hear the truth and understand the mysteries, while the Gentiles remain in the dark. Mark then tells us that Jesus, when he is alone with his disciples and out of the earshot of unworthy Gentiles, speaks to his disciples directly and without the need for parables. Here is Mark's story:

    And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude.....And he taught them many things by parables....And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them... Unto you [his disciples] it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [in order] that... they...not perceive...and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.....But without a parable spake he not unto [his disciples]: and when they were alone, he expounded ALL THINGS (emphasis added) to his disciples. (Mark 4:1-34)

    You see? Jesus "expounded all things" to his disciples, but kept the salvation message HIDDEN from the gentiles. This is not the act of a man who loves all men. If Jesus loved all men, he would have tried his best to make the message of salvation clear to all men, not just the "chosen ones."

    Thus, Mark tells us that Jesus, without speaking in parables, "expounded all things to his disciples". Since Jesus did not want those outside his group of followers to know the mysteries of God, he spoke to them in parables in order that they would not learn that which is necessary to be saved. Mark's view receives support from Paul in a letter he he wrote to church members in Corinth, Greece, a city he chose for evangelizing: "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) Thus, Paul is telling the reader that God gives up on those who he believes are lost and hides from them the light of his son's glorious gospel.

    Matthew Also Thought Parables Hid God's Message from the Gentiles

    The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathering together unto him ....And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because [in this way] they...see not... and hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:1-13)

    Matthew cites scripture to justify his having Jesus hide God's message from the Gentiles: "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive." (Matthew 13:14) The scripture to which Matthew refers is the one in which the command is given to "shut the eyes" of the Gentiles: "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-11)

    This is not the only time Matthew demonstrates his belief that God's message of salvation was not to be wasted on Gentiles. Matthew has Jesus give his famous speech urging his followers to ignore them : "Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ( Matthew 10:7 , Matthew 15:24 ) (Emphasis added)

    So, you see? Jesus evidently did NOT love all men. He wanted only a certain class of men to be saved. Not only did Jesus not show any affection for his mother and brother, he outright rejected them at the house where they had come to take charge of him, and he specifically said that he had come to earth not to bring peace, but to turn family members against one another. Jesus was not the all-loving person people would like to believe.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Joseph,

    I started to remain silent. But I will not. John 2:11 After Jesus has performed his first miracle at the request of his mother, we read in vs. 12: "After this he and his mother and brothers and his disciples went down to Capernaum, but they did not stay there many days." Doesn't sound like enmity between Jesus and his family to me. Does it to you, Joseph?

    Luke 4:38 "After getting up out of the synagogue he entered into Simon's home. Now Simon's mother-in-law was distressed with a high fever, and they made request of him for her. So he stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. Instantly she rose and began ministering to them."

    None of the passages you show detract from Jesus' mother. She did the will of the Father. See Luke 1:38.

    John 19:26: "Therefore Jesus, seeing his mother and the disicple whom he loved standing by, said to his mother: "Woman, see! your son!" Next he said to the disciple: "See! your mother!: And from that hour on the disciple took her to his own home."

    In Acts 1:13-14--Disciples, Mary the mother of Jesus and his brothers are all there together at Pentecost. Do you think any of them felt like they had been slighted by Jesus?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I'm still waiting for a verse which shows Jesus promoting family togetherness, or showing love toward his own family members, or encouraging one of his friends to love his family more. If they don't exist, then . . .

    JosephAlward,

    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
    Joseph

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Joseph Alward said,

    I'm still waiting for a verse which shows Jesus promoting family togetherness, or showing love toward his own family members, or encouraging one of his friends to love his family more. If they don't exist, then . . .

    Joseph Malik provides

    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    Joseph Alward responds:

    Fair enough. This shows that Jesus encouraged the son to take the mother into his home, and it satisfies my request. However, you are inadvertently damning Jesus with faint praise. If this verse is all you can offer in defense of my contention that Jesus generally did nothing to promote family togetherness, when compared to what he said and did against it, then Jesus comes out lookly pretty bad. Where are the verses to counter the ones which have Jesus refusing to speak to his mother outside the house, and telling the followers inside that his real mother is found among the women in the house? Where are the verses to counter Jesus' statement that he came to earth NOT to bring peace, but to set mother, father, son, and daughter against one another? Where are the verses which counter the ones which have Jesus stating that his followers must hate their mothers and fathers?

    On balance, then, a stronger case can be made for the claim that Jesus' teaching worked against family togetherness than it did for it.

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    This is about jesus, his mother, and the disciple john. Jesus pushed the care of his own mother onto nonfamily member disciple john. One could ask, where were all of jesus' brothers. Logically, the responsibility for the care of their mother would fall to her children, not another. Jesus' request doesn't make sense. A short time earlier, mary and jesus brothers were all together looking for him. Jesus' brothers didn't just disappear.

    SS

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