opusdei1972: May be some of you will be shocked by this question. However, when I was studying the Bible with critical eyes I detected that Paul ( or Saul of Tarsus) misquoted the Hebrew Bible in order to get false support for his arguments. Of course, this tricky kind of use of the "scriptures" was not only used by him, but others, like the author of the Gospel of Matthew got unsupported doctrines misquoting verses. For instance, how could post 70 christians sustain that Mary was virgin after conceiving Jesus?, by quoting Isaiah 7:14 which uses the word virgin in the LXX (not in the Hebrew Bible). Joseph Rutherford seemed to learn this kind of interpretative tricks when he wanted to invent a type anti-type teaching, and so on. Freddy learnt this from him.
How dishonest was the Apostle Paul?
by opusdei1972 63 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
fulltimestudent
-
fulltimestudent
It can be suggested that the people of Palestine, including Jesus and the disciples, were multi-lingual.
Since no recordings of speeches or conversations exist, we have to turn to written words. Epigraphy (the study and interpretation of ancient inscriptions) comes to our rescue. Public inscriptions were displayed to instruct the public in some way, so they would be inscribed in a language the local people understood. Private inscriptions, such as those on tombs and graves, were more private and personal. but still meant to be readable by those passing by. What language(s) do these documents in stone use?
Professor Lee Levine in his 1998 study (note1) assessing the impact of Greek culture on Jewish thought, lists the percentage of funerary inscriptions in Greek in various cities.
In second temple Jerusalem: 35% in Greek.
In Bet She'arim (Note 2): 78% in Greek.
In Jaffa (Note 3): 90% in Greek
And for comparison, in Rome: 78% in Greek
Draw your own conclusions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 1: The book cited is "Judaism & Hellenism in Antiquity," (1998, University of Washington Press) Professor Lee I. Levine, teaches at The Institute of Archeology, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and is a noted Jewish scholar, if anyone has doubts as to whether he may know what he's talking about, please check his list of publications: http://archaeology.huji.ac.il/depart/classical/leel/publications.asp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 2: Bet She'arim. An archeological site, with a large number of tombs, located in the southern section of Lower Galilee. It is now a world heritage site, described as follows:
The town's vast necropolis, carved out of soft limestone, contains more than 30 burial cave systems. Although only a portion of the necropolis has been excavated, it has been likened to a book inscribed in stone. Its catacombs, mausoleums, and sarcophagi are adorned with elaborate symbols and figures as well as an impressive quantity of incised and painted inscriptions in Hebrew, Aramaic, Palmyrene, and Greek, documenting two centuries of historical and cultural achievement. The wealth of artistic adornments contained in this, the most ancient extensive Jewish cemetery in the world, is unparalleled anywhere. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_She%27arim_National_Park
Most of the tombs date from the second century.
The entrance to the cave of coffins.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 3: Jaffa. The oldest part of the city now known as Tel Aviv.
-
LAWHFol
In Lost Scriptures, Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament, Bart D Ehrman writes on the Letter of Peter to James:
"The Letter of Peter to James" is one of a number of early Christian writings pseudonymously written in the name of Jesus' disciple, Simon Peter... It does not survive as an independently transmitted letter, but only as the preface to the "Homilies of Clement" a collection of legendary stories and sermons of Clement of Rome ...
The Letter of Peter urges James to pass along the accompanying sermons carefully to those who are worthy to receive them, and to no one else.
The clear concern is that Peter's teachings not be corrupted by those who have a different understanding of the truth. Both the Letter and the Reception are Jewish Christian in their orientation, as seen in their emphasis on emulating the actions of Moses, on keeping the Law, and on opposing the person Peter calls "the man who is my enemy." Peter's opponent here is commonly understood to be none other than the apostle Paul ( Gal 2:11-14) who taught that salvation comes to all people, Jew and Gentile, apart from following the Law of Moses, and who urged Gentiles not to be circumcised (Gal. 5:2-12)."
Verse 5: "For to do such a thing means to act contrary to the law of God which was made known by Moses and was confirmed by our Lord in its everlasting continuance. For he said: "The heaven and the earth will pass away, but one jot or one title shall not pass from the law.
Verse 6: "This he said that everything might come to pass. But those persons who, I known not how, allege that they are at home in my thoughts wish to expound the words which they have heard of me better than I myself who spoke them. To those whom they instruct they say that this is my opinion, to which indeed I never gave a thought.
Verse 7: "But if they falsely assert such a thing while I am still alive, how much more after my death will those who come later venture to do so?"
Chapter 2 verse 3: "For some from among the Gentiles have rejected my lawful preaching and have preferred a lawless and absurd doctrine of the man who is my enemy.
Verse 4: "And indeed some have attempted, whilst I am still alive, to distort my words by interpretations of many sorts, as if I taught the dissolution of the law and, although I was of this opinion, did not express it openly. But that may God forbid! -
sparky1
CalebInFloroda,
Thank you for your interest in my post. Isn't Biblical Exegesis one hell of a slippery proposition!? Had the Apostle Paul been a Stoic philosopher writing to Stoics, I might be able to accept your interpretation. Marcus Aurelius explains what you have written about in his MEDITATIONS and I do realize that what you have said about the lack of distinction between 'nature' and the 'natural, social order of things' was indeed the viewpoint of first century Hellenistic and Greek thought. No doubt, the Apostle Paul was familiar with Stoic thought and may even have been trained in dialectics, argumentation and logic. However, he was still of Jewish descent and was 'Christian' in his thought processes. Please see the following meaning of PHUSIS: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/phusis.html
-
OUTLAW
The Apostle Paul was so dishonest..
He`d go into a donut shop,grab a donut
Then he`d lick the Icing off one side of the donut and put it back on the tray..
Licked side down..
Fact:..
There is No Biblical Record of the Apostle Paul ever buying a Donut!..
-
CalebInFloroda
I see a problem developing in this thread, and the Watchtower is to blame.
I’ve noticed that many ex-JWs exit the JW religion with much of their Watchtower theology still intact, though they may not notice it. I know I left this way. If not it is expelled, the ex-JW will make mistakes in further judgment made outside the Watchtower on Scripture and religion.
One of these carryovers from Watchtower naiveté is that the New Testament authors are “quoting” from either the LXX or a Hebrew text. But the truth is they often are not. What you are reading when Paul and others “quote” from the Hebrew Scriptures is midrash, not a real quote.
Midrash is a Jewish technique in which exegesis is actually interpolated into Scripture as you say it, thus making up for any ambiguity in a text that might be viewed as problematic to the teacher. Normally this is an acceptable technique, but the New Testament writers used it to emphasize that there was a hidden, encoded message that only the light of Christ could decode.
Matthew’s use of Isaiah 7.14 is a prime example of how the NT writers used midrash. The text reads in Hebrew similar to the translation as found in the NJPS:
Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel.
The word for “young woman” refers to a type of female. In older forms of English the term would have been “maid” or even “maiden,” but it has fallen out of popular use. While the LXX uses a term that on the surface reads “virgin,” the Greek word does refer to someone sexual status but again to a type of female, most notably a “maiden.”
Since midrash often is a play-on-words form of exegesis, the author of the gospel of Matthew played with the Greek word to give it both meanings, namely “virgin/maiden” and “virgin/sexually inexperienced” at Matthew 1.28. The author was neither quoting from the Hebrew text or even the LXX necessarily, but was merely using the same words to fit the prophecy into a fulfillment of the events mentioned. The author does this several times, never really quoting but reshaping texts, such as at Matthew 2.23.
The theology of the Watchtower is very primitive and two-dimensional. It views the Scriptures as a sort of book of proof-texts to be used as proof-texts. The actual documents are actually far more complex. But the Governing Body insists on NOT teaching JWs the actual process of transmission, that a very Semitic philology and set of Jewish hermeneutics governed their construction.
We who leave the JWs behind are not taught the necessary fundamentals of Bible study to begin with so we find ourselves arguing based on the only limitations we know. Our conclusions can therefore fail us. How many on this board can identify when a “quote” is really a quotation from Scripture and not midrash or perhaps when a verse merely being stated from memory? What is the difference between midrash and Midrash? Who even heard of the term before today?
I was so unprepared when I went into formal Scriptural study. I learned nothing from my exposure to the Watchtower brand of religion (though I thought I did). I swear it probably sucked up a few IQ points even! Thus I am not criticizing anyone for the mistakes that are being made. You are working from the limited point that some of you probably still have due to the same happening to you. It took me almost 20 years outside of the Watchtower devoted to in-depth collegiate study to get where I am today. The more I learned, the more I realized how little I knew.
Paul is not always quoting from any text in his writing. His quotes are often midrash in nature. They aren’t always to be found in the LXX or the Masoretic or even proto-Masoretic texts. It is not a sign of error on the author’s part either. While I don’t agree with a lot of Paul’s teachings or the New Testament in general, I can attest that the author we generally know as Paul was not an idiot. He may have twisted things beyond their original purpose, but he does demonstrate a logic that is definitely Pharisaic in nature. From a Jewish viewpoint I can attest that the writings do demonstrate a familiarity with rabbinical exegesis of the Second Temple era.
-
sparrowdown
OUTLAW - ah yes, I remember the account well.
It was a Donut Shoppe in Corinth I believe and he stated "he really hates Corinth."
-
CalebInFloroda
Sparky1,
I was not offering my personal view. I'm a philologist who works in the field of Bible translation. I have worked on one ecumenical version so far. Though an exJW, I am also Jewish.
And as a Jew I don't have a personal opinion or conviction about what Paul was trying to say. I can only tell you the mechanics and what the general academic consensus is. If you wish to debate the points I made you will have to find you nearest university scholar and take it up with them. I am only repeating what is accepted in the field.
Lastly, while I appreciate your offering a link for me, that is only a lexicon entry. Lexicons give you "root meanings" to words, and some usage. They are not exhaustive representations however and they are quite limited in scope when it comes to how terms have been expressed by writers throughout various eras. We need to delve into etymology for that.
In my field you have lexicography (which is the work of defining root meanings), etymology (the origin of words and how there meanings changes over time), and philology (the critical analysis of language as used in history). A lexicon as you linked to is just a small part of what is needed to unravel and understand ancient texts and their words. You can't really understand a language just by looking up things in a lexicon. That's an old JW trick meant to "wow" people. It's really nothing more than looking up something in a dictionary.
-
CalebInFloroda
@OUTLAW & Sparrowdown
You two got it wrong.
It was Chanukah, and the Apostle Paul was known for going into sufganiyot (Jewish doughnut) shops, and when no one was looking he would lick them and tell Timothy: "I hate Israel and Israelites."
He later offered an apology on his JDate account claiming that he really meant to say that what he hated was how "Jewish food made people fat in Israel, that's what I really hate." Paul stopped eating sufganiyot after that.
But Peter wrote he saw Paul trying to lick bagels at Einstein Brothers a week later.
-
OUTLAW
.
..........The Apostle Paul as a Kid..
With One Of the Donuts He Assaulted..
......
