Post by Ray Franz

by Amazing 131 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  kelsey007

  Though it is wonderful that Franz has taken his time to respond to such it is a shame that there was ever a need. I have gotten in much trouble here for making the statement that much damage has been done due to such personal attacks. Clearly Franz has been troubled that such allegations were slung at him. I know from personal experience here that words are easily twisted and motivation and meanings are freely imputed. Mr Franz response again shows the quality of this man. He is a good example for all ex-jw's here. This situation should be a lesson for all in slinging mud at others and twisting the words of others.

  "Similarly, to say that because one does not choose to align himself with a certain movement (whether Silent Lambs or any other anti-Watch Tower movement) he thereby can be labeled an apologist for the skewed Watch Tower policies is unjust and hence unchristian. "

  This is the point! How well I know! Thank you Mr Franz- from one who chose not to align myself with silent lambs.

  Edited by - kelsey007 on 24 October 2002 14:6:32
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  gsark

  As I have said on many occasions, DISCUSSION of any topic is a good one. But whether or not Ray Franz is going to be a defendant in hundreds of civil lawsuits across the United States is no longer in the hands of participants on this discussion board. Way back on August 5, this subject came up on this board and was met with derision and contempt. How sad. It could have ended right there.

  Be that is it may, one area of legal principle that many posters on this baord agree on--from whatever 'camp' in which they take their stand--is that allegations of child abuse should be referred to trained professionals and left up to them.

  I would say the same applies to the issue of Ray Franz and the silent lambs issue. Whether or not Ray Franz has any responsibility for the harm done to thousands of children because his fifteen years in New York is out of our hands. Our invovlement is over. The fate of Ray Franz is now up to lawyers, judges and juries and I don't see why it should be any different.

  I personally am tired of beating a dead horse. My vote goes to the silent lambs. If they hold Ray Franz responsible in some way then I am on their side one hundred percent. If they do not, then I am on their side one hundred percent.

  Dungbeetle, 'retirement from active posting on JWD going very badly' class...

  edited because I can never get it right the first time <sigh>

  Edited by - gsark on 24 October 2002 14:15:29
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  JWinSF

  As others have already said, thank you Amazing. Ray's balanced reply further reinforces my admiration for him. When I first started to consider leaving the JWs, I had lingering doubts about it being "The Truth" and my possibly bringing condemnation upon myself. Ray's books helped me see that it was just another man-made organization that had gone too far in controlling individuals [as many other religious and non-religious organizations do]. As a result, my letter of disassociation went in with not a shred of doubt regarding whether or not I was doing the right thing. Ray's books, in my case, were the reason that I was able to finally "pull the scales off of my eyes".

  If you can, please let Ray see the replies that all of us have made.

  John W Wirtanen
• 

  JT

  I agree

  when i read of posters talking about -- Ray must still support the wt in someway--

  I almost wanted to laugh, what we saw is what happend the first few days of this very issue

  Bill made some comments, others felt it was bad timing or taste and at that point many supporters of bill went into high gear basicallly accusing anyone who didn;t fall in line or even offered a word of contructive crictism as ones who DON'T SUPPORT THE LAMPS

  and over and over many posted that no it's not that we don't support the lambs it is merely that perhaps this tactic or that statement by bill was not in good timing

  but for the most part we saw a "Bill right or wrong he is still my Bill" mindset kick in

  to this day not one person who critizes bill doesn't support the CAUSE, IT was merely the Manner

  and for many of us we saw the same type of mindset that we saw as jw any thing critical of the org makes you DISLOYAL TO GOD

  well we saw with our own eyes that same basic mindset, anyone who says bill should not do this or do that then that person is Monday morning QB, etc

  when the fact of the matter is the last thing Bill needs is a bunch of Yes Men and Women who fail to see that certain actions can put the cause at greater risk of not accomplishing it's main goal

  while no one is expected to agree on all things the problem is when someone doesn't agree the old tested and tried trick of calling into question thier very character is straight out of a WT Play book

  but here on the net ------ IT DOES WORK

  I - -hopefully we can move on and deal with the real issues
• 

  Mulan

  Thank you Jim, and thank you Ray. We have discussed many of the same points at home.

  I wish Bill would write an apology here. We need it. The other post he made, was not an apology.

  As my husband has said: We support breast cancer research, and do what we can to raise money. It doesn't mean we aren't in favor of other kinds of cancer research. We are just focusing on the one kind.

  Similarly, Ray may support all the work being done by silentlambs, but isn't getting involved. There is a difference.
• 

  Mac

  Thank you Amazing, and thank you Ray.

  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!

  mac
• 

  Amazing

  Hi JT: I like your point:

  when the fact of the matter is the last thing Bill needs is a bunch of Yes Men and Women who fail to see that certain actions can put the cause at greater risk of not accomplishing it's main goal

  Excellent. I hope that Bill comes to appreciate this, that many here care for the cause, and our comments are made out of concern for its success.
• 

  MegaDude

  Regardless, I think Bill Bowen and Ray Franz have done a tremendous amount of work and good by exposing the atrocities carried out by the Watchtower Society. I am, quite frankly, grateful to both of these men. I would hate to see more wasted energy devoted in continuing to keep an issue alive that should be forgotten. Our main focus should be the exposing of the Watchtower and its corrupt agenda, and lending a helping hand to those exiting that punitive religion.
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  IslandWoman

  Gsark,

  My vote goes to the silent lambs. If they hold Ray Franz responsible in some way then I am on their side one hundred percent. If they do not, then I am on their side one hundred percent.

  Who are the "they" in your post? Do you mean all the silent lambs or do you mean the silentlamb that posts here under that name? If you mean all the silent lambs then I presume their org. is a democratic one in which they all have a say in whether Ray Franz is held responsible or not.

  IW
• 

  kelsey007

  gsark your loyalty to silent lambs could be called comendable. Your words however reminded me of what an elder said to me in 1973. He stated that if the WT said that the JWs should start celebrating christmas he would do so without question. That statement was what started many years of soul- searching for me in regards to my 100% loyalty to the organization. Is it man or an organization that I align myself with or is it truth? My JW experience taught me the vital lesson that never again would I pledge 100% loyalty to any man made effort. I would question each thing brought to me and sort it out with what I believed to be godly values. The same arguments used in support of silent lambs can and are used by supporters of the WT. For those who have tired of such reasonings it is insulting to the intellegence to justify bad conduct of one while condemning the bad conduct of others.

  "Way back on August 5, this subject came up on this board and was met with derision and contempt. How sad. It could have ended right there."

  The same could be said for the contempt that silent lambs seemingly holds for those who do not align themselves with their efforts. Though supporters of the silent lambs feel free to criticize those who do not align themselves with the movement they do not allow for such criticism to be brought to them and do not want to afford those whom they critisize the opportunity to defend their side of an issue. We, the ones not actively aligning ourselves with silent lambs, are treated as apostates of the movement- how strange.