Ray and Bill

larc

I would not have posted this, but the subject just doesn't go away. I would like to comment on the differences in the two men. First of all, they come from different eras. As several people have noted, when Ray was a researcher, then a member of the governing body, pedophilia while a problem as it is today, was not talked about and often the evil was hidden within the confines of someone's home. It rarely hit the media, the congregation's attention or was such information sent to Bethel. Therefore, I believe Ray when he states that he never heard of such cases. It is obvious from Ray's book, that there was an evil that he knew of, he would expose it. I also believe him when he said that he did not have pedophelia in mind when he wrote about the two witness rule. As I remember it, the two witness rule was designed for disputes between members in the congregation. It was not designed to deal with felonies. Besides the very obvious generation difference between Ray and Bill, one must also consider the personality differences between the two men. Ray is a very mild mannered, kind introvert. His personality and talent is idealy suited for the major contribution he made, that is, his two books, which have helped tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands in their escape from the Organization. Bill is extroverted and action oriented. His personality is well suited for what he does as an activist. Ray is not tempermentally suited to be an activist, and Bill is not tempermentally suited to write detailed, scholarly books. Each has their own talents, and have used them effectively. Both have made major contributions. In my opinion, neither should be criticized for not doing what the other has done. I wish everyone here would forget the differences between the two men and applaud their unique contributions in our common cause.

BONEZZ

Ray and Bill who??

-BONEZZ

blondie

Very nice, larc. I agree with what you have said. I am the scholarly type myself. Although a silentlamb, I would not be comfortable at a march. I work well one on one with people helping them to overcome their abused past and to find other resources. Strength in diversity. I have benefited from what both men have contributed. That includes larc and family as well.

Blondie

BONEZZ

Actually you make valid points.

mpatrick

I don't post here on a regular basis, nor do I read every post...but I do come here and lurk quite often and read a few post that sound interesting. To say the least, this topic has spiked my interest. Though I have never met Ray Franz in person, I have only heard incredibly nice things about him and I know that he has helped more people than we could ever know get out of the Organization. I think he has used his knowledge and talents well in helping others.

I am sure everyone that post here on a regular basis believes that this topic has been beat into the ground, but I personally am glad that I can come here and read different perspectives and that I have had the opportunity to read post by both Ray and Bill. I believe that Bill is doing a valuable job in exposing the Society's stand on the "two eye-witnesses" rule and child molestation...but after meeting him and reading emails and comments made by Bill, it is quite evident to me that Bill's motives are not entirely just about "silentlambs" issues. I have personally heard Bill make comments about bringing the Society down, and I believe that has become a major vendetta of his. (Not that I blame him, I would like to see the Society brought down too.) But, I don't think mixing the causes is good for "silentlambs". I think it should remain seperate from other issues and that if Bill is going to speak out for all the "silentlambs", then he needs to stick to that issue and that issue only, especially given the sensitive nature of the problem...afterall, we don't want to victimize the victims.

Anyway, that is my feelings on the matter. I am glad I have a place such as this one where I can voice my personal opinions and I think everyone should have that right. If others feel this has been beaten into the ground, then just move onto other post (it's as easy as that). I will continue to lurk and reply when I feel the urge...in the meantime I will continue lurking and reading the many different opinions...it helps me look at things from many different perspectives.

Michelle

Guest 77

A host of problems can be avoided if people followed the suggestion at 1Thess. 4:11, "....make it your aim to live quietly and to mind you own business..."

Guest 77

Englishman

Larc,

You make your case very well indeed, what you describe is as close as we're going to get IMHO.

Englishman.

ThiChi

Thanks Larc:

I guess I feel sorry for Ray because of all the misinformation and attacks he has received over the years. After I read COC, I was still an Elder for a year, and defended the truth of his departure to others when his name was brought up. I even rebuked a CO in front of my body of elders when he tried to imply that Ray was involved in "Homosexual matters" at Brooklyn. I used my friendship with Paul Trask (cited in Ray's book) for knowing the details of Rays departure so I would not get booted.

He has been accused of all most everything under the sun. It really hurts that another man I admire, Bill, made the comments he did, and now instead of just admitting it, he has offered, for better or worse, excuses or explanations, he now has only fanned the flames.

Ray has a truly good friend in Amazing. I count both of them as fellow Brothers and would do back flips for both.

Edited by - thichi on 25 October 2002 19:18:19

jst2laws

Excellent Larc,

J2

outoftheorg

Thanks for your post Lark.

I agree with you that both are good men and both are working hard for good causes. Like you pointed out they are two very different personalities. Each one effective in their own way in their efforts. We ought not expect perfection from either and accept that there may be differences between them and not dwell needlessly on this subject.

Thanks again for your post.

Outoftheorg

Ray and Bill

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