Incidentally, my name is simply "og". No upper case is needed.
Can't help but scratch my head...
by Lee Elder 37 Replies latest jw friends
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DannyBear
og,
'True believer's' hate it when you make them answer hard questions. As a matter of fact, they almost without exception ignore them. They have to, because they cannot give a reasonable answer. "faith the assured expectation of things unseen" and all that rot.
The mind of the 'true believer' is sogged down with glorious thoughts of the eternal hereafter. They have little if any patience for those demanding a reasonable answer.
The closest they can come is SOOOOON ALL KNEE'S WILL BEND. Hell the muslims have been bending thier knee's to the east for several thousand year's now. They (muslim religion) has not improved much on it's unity or reasonable approach. Niether have 'christians'.
Believe it our way, or die. The costumes change, but the message is still as old and tiresome as the religion's themselves.
Danny
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DJ
Just answer this, DJ: will those who don't believe as you do about Christ - will your God kill them or torture them or not send them to heaven because of that non-belief?
Dannybear and og~~
Since you just can't stand it when you ask this question and it goes unresponded to, I'll give you my thoughts. You may disagree and that is fine but I am weary of the attacks on my belief. I am not attacking your aethism or agnosticism or whatever your beliefs are. I only request the same respect in return. I do not come here to debate or argue with people.
The question is......."will those who don't believe as you do about Christ" answer of course not, I don't know if you even know what I personally believe about Christ, so the question is mute. Next part: "will your God kill them or not send them to heaven because of that non-belief" sorry, this is still vague.
I think that perhaps you meant to ask, if people who have been offerred the free gift of salvation continually refuse this gift and slap the hand who offered it to them.....will they go to heaven?? My answer: If I were GOD, they wouldn't. I hate it when my kids don't get to the dinner table after I call them several times! OK, we all know that I'm not God.....so my answer is NO, I don't think that they will be granted eternal life, they rejected it. It is basically that simple. My God is just. He doesn't desire for anyone to perish but to turn to him for salvation. The whole point of Christianity is to help us to see that our works are worthless in gaining eternal life. It is a gift that Christ died for us. Our good works that flow from a loving and thankful spirit are evidence of this. It cannot be earned. Why would a buddist who may live a clean life and all that jazz....who goes to pray to an idol be worthy of eternal life. He would be worth eternal life as much as the sinner down the road. Don't you see? It is not about you or me or her or him? It is about Christ, he died so that you may live. I don't deserve eternal life. You don't either. No one does. We have all sinned. Yet God has provided this gift to those who will humble themselves to the realization that we could never be worthy on our own. It is not about who is righteous and who is not. None of us are righteous. Not even one. Our righteousness is through Christ. This is humbling, not exalting, in any way shape or form. Ok, I'm done here. Sheesh.
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DannyBear
DJ,
All you had to do was say Yes. 'I believe God will destroy all those who do not believe in Christ Jesus'.
I think og and I knew that was going to be your answer. But you still could not come right out and say it, could you? You had to take an entire paragraph explaining, explaining, explaining the goodness, the rightness of your god doing so.
I really think you have missed the whole point, to the very questions og has presented to you. The reason I ask these type questions, is to make you (fundies) stop and think before you write such condescending statements like "Christ will solve all the problems" "Jesus is the answer" "True christians know" "Salvation belongs to Christ" "Jesus love's you".........on and on the mantra's go........don't you understand how insulting it is for those of us who do not hold your beliefs to be addressed in this smarmy fashion?
Why not leave out the 'witness' and say something based on your understanding, no reference ot god or some other higher power is needed to express an opinion. We will still hear DJ, we don't need you to ratify your comments by authority of anyone else.
In other words preach and sing, witness and quote scripture, in a place of worship or when you know for a fact that all in attendance are like minded. But when you and your fellow christian brotherhood, force your beliefs by making assertions out to be facts............please.....how can you expect any other response from those of us who do not believe it.????
Danny
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DJ
! OK, we all know that I'm not God.....so my answer is NO, I don't think that they will be granted eternal life, they rejected it. It is basically that simple.
Look, Danny....lol I quoted myself. You see, I did answer in one sentence as you prefer. I was unaware of the required length you desired. I was merely trying to let you read my thoughts. My beliefs are not dictated by some religion in the world. I think for myself, that's how I left the jw's. I don't agree with a lot of teachings in mainstream churches. I don't like being criticized about my beliefs and I'm sure that you don't either. Let's leave it there. I'm going to bed, as it is late where I live.
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CoolBreeze
I find it fascinating that people will defend a book created by the Roman government specifically to supress free thought and free spirituality amongst the Europeans they sought to assimilate. The God of the Bible is not my God, for I refuse to worship the creations of man. Christianity and the Bible have come between too many people and their God.
Anton
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Big Tex
Ray Franz is absolutely correct when expressing his concern that former Jehovah's Witnesses not exchange one set of extreme views for another -that is what many do. Religion should bring out the best in people but sadly brings out the worst all too often.
Profound sentiments indeed. Sometimes when there is so much noise, we forget to listen.
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DannyBear
DJ,
Have a good nites rest. I feel sad that you feel attacked, for that was not my intention. It was just to try and help you understand how comments based on a religious philosophy/belief can be offensive, even if your intentions are clearly on the up and up. Enough said.
Thanks for the exchange.
Danny
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og
Since you just can't stand it when you ask this question and it goes unresponded to, I'll give you my thoughts. You may disagree and that is fine but I am weary of the attacks on my belief. I am not attacking your aethism or agnosticism or whatever your beliefs are. I only request the same respect in return. I do not come here to debate or argue with people.
You do not respect my beliefs, you believe that your God is going to torture and/or kill me for having them. Oh, and I think you must have meant "atheism", not "aethism"; I don't even know what "aethism" is.
The question is......."will those who don't believe as you do about Christ" answer of course not, I don't know if you even know what I personally believe about Christ, so the question is mute. Next part: "will your God kill them or not send them to heaven because of that non-belief" sorry, this is still vague.
You mean, the question is moot. And I certainly wasn't being vague. Abrasive and "coarse" maybe, but not vague. You should probably get a dictionary or something.
I think that perhaps you meant to ask, if people who have been offerred the free gift of salvation continually refuse this gift and slap the hand who offered it to them.....will they go to heaven??
Don't rephrase my question into a straw man. If you don't know what a straw man is, find a book or web site about logical fallacies.
My answer: If I were GOD, they wouldn't. I hate it when my kids don't get to the dinner table after I call them several times!
So you would kill them or torture them to get even? Creepy.
OK, we all know that I'm not God.....
Yep. Although you seem to think you have a direct line to him.
so my answer is NO, I don't think that they will be granted eternal life, they rejected it. It is basically that simple. My God is just. He doesn't desire for anyone to perish but to turn to him for salvation.
God: "Do what I say you weak little creation of mine, or I'll torture and/or kill your ass. Oh, and I'm not going to just tell you directly what to do, I'm going to hide it in a contradictory, confusing book with a funky compilation history, and THEN I'm going to allow all sorts of other books to be written that will confuse the issue miserably - oh, and I won't even make sure that this book is available everywhere. You poor saps."
DJ: "My god is just!"
The whole point of Christianity is to help us to see that our works are worthless in gaining eternal life. It is a gift that Christ died for us. Our good works that flow from a loving and thankful spirit are evidence of this. It cannot be earned.
Um, any evidence for all this?
Why would a buddist who may live a clean life and all that jazz....who goes to pray to an idol be worthy of eternal life. He would be worth eternal life as much as the sinner down the road.
DJ, to be so completely ignorant about a religion that you are condemning is reprehensible enough. To flaunt this ignorance is inexcusably evil. You might want to read a book or two about Buddhism (note spelling), or even a few primary texts, such as the Dhammapada.
Don't you see? It is not about you or me or her or him? It is about Christ, he died so that you may live. I don't deserve eternal life. You don't either. No one does. We have all sinned. Yet God has provided this gift to those who will humble themselves to the realization that we could never be worthy on our own. It is not about who is righteous and who is not. None of us are righteous. Not even one. Our righteousness is through Christ. This is humbling, not exalting, in any way shape or form.
ogdammit, this is just nuts. See previous comments re: evidence and your God's apparent attitude.
Ok, I'm done here. Sheesh.
You mean, I can't be saved!?
BTW DannyBear, thanks for pitching in on this. A poker game kept me away from this delightful discussion last night. And I won! Must be that good old secular humanist mojo... or, could it be... Satan?
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DannyBear
og,
A fellow poker player. I don't blame you one bit.
I would love to get a few fellow 'apostates' together for a good game of hold'em. Although since we have some fairly 'stone faces' among us, house rules would require a table limit. Say $.05 to $.25
DannyBear 'check'