by Gilgamesh 41 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
Hi Gil,
I want to add my thanks to that of Carl. Frankly, I cannot think why the attack (and I call it an attack) on Ray ever took place. Most of the puppies who are making so much noise have no knowledge of the good Ray has done or what kind of man he is. Again, mil gracias!
Jim Penton
Jim Penton,
Most of the puppies
Nooooo, that is not the way to address us! Jackass, fool, neanderthals etc. are all acceptable but "puppies" implies you are an adult dog. No, no. Get with the program. Once you left the Watchtower there was no more looking down! You are one of us now, like it or not.
IW
Are you the "M. James Penton?" if you are, you rock, man! welcome and I hope you post often!
Ray has aways had a place in my heart! What a great Brother!
Edited by - thichi on 4 November 2002 19:54:34
Jim,
Thanks. I tried to read through most of the older threads in this category and I just couldn't believe the misinformation. Some of it is just pure disrespect for its own sake, apparently. Makes me want to cry. I wasted half of this thread alone on pure nonsense.
I blame a lot of it on what the Watchtower made of some of us. To break free from the Tower so many felt at first we were losing our "life." Then we realized slowly that a lot more had been stolen from our lives than we could have realized at first. No wonder that some of us are driven with such prolonged anger. Most of us experienced jumping over the Watchtower Gate only to get cut from the barbed liars at the top. It's not hard to see why some are still driven by the inertia from that initial paroxysm of cynicism and iconoclasm. (Darn, I couldn't think of any words that end in --esm, --osm, or --usm.)
Cheers,
Gilgamesh
It's nice to be with you. I fully understand anger at the Tower of Evil. It destroyed much of my health and hurt me very deeply. When I left, I didn't believe it had anything to do with true Christianity, but I loved many of the people associated with it; and to have some turn on me like vipers really hurt. I suffered heart attacks and a major abdominal operation that my physicians said were caused by the terrible stress I felt. Yet today I look back and say that the best thing the Witnesses ever did to me was force me out. I have never lost my Christian faith, but I am free now of an organization that doesn't know the meaning of true love and has absolutely no sense of aesthetics or joy of life.
For Island Woman, don't worry; I'm just another guy and not superior to anyone. But I refer to some as puppies, not because I look down on them, but because they are young pups in comparison to this old dog who has a bit more experince than many of them have. As I grow older I know I have fewer answers. So along with Henry Cardinal Newman I say: "Lead kindly light; lead Thou me on. One steps enough for me."
Yes, I am M. James Penton. I've always disliked my first name and therefore use James or Jim. but because so many organizations insist that I use my first name, I use the M. for official reasons. By the way, I soon hope to have another book published, this time on the JWs and the Third Reich. Examining this history was a shocker. The ordinary Witnesses were very brave, but their leaders in Germany and Brooklyn (especially Rutherford) were real compromisers. To me Rutherford really was responsible for the modern Watchtower organization and he was an absolute monster.
Blessings,
Jim
G'day Jim,
We'll be looking forward to this new tome with keen anticipation. Another one for our library.
Cheers, Ozzie
I look forward to reading the new book!
I can't remember if I welcomed you to the forum so just in case:
Welcome! ... it's a real honour to have you here
I feel so badly about the way this has all gone. The fact that Jim Penton and COJ have repsonded makes me feel more confident in my feelings about all of this. I admit I go on my gut feelings most of the time, and often I am wrong. This time I was sure I wasn't. When that "little voice" is telling you this is wrong, I listen.
What I don't want to happen is for more shunning to take place. I experience that from the JW's, and I don't want that from Bill Bowen or the others who support him. I truly love Bill, consider him a friend, and I think he is a great guy. His personality is right up my alley. The posts in the past 3 weeks have really saddened me and caused me many nights of not sleeping well. I don't want to think that we all have to agree on everything if we are to be friends.
I hope Bill and the others who are so adamantly supporting his comments don't feel that if we aren't agreeing, then we are against him. I don't feel that way.
Thank you Gilgamesh for your comments.
Messenger's comparison to Charles Manson was so offensive, I hesitate to comment. The whole Manson "ride of terror" happened when I was pregnant with Princess. My emotions were shot anyway, and that situation terrified me. He is a lunatic, crazed, Satanic, and more. I hope Messenger isn't Bill Bowen.
Edited by - mulan on 5 November 2002 19:45:34
Hello, Gilgamesh,
Very nice introductory post. It was the best bit of writing that I've read since... well... since I read Ray's personal rebuttal to the scurrilous accusations that were made about him a couple of weeks ago.
Your post also brings a lot of peripheral questions about YOU to mind, but I think they all might be answered before it's over... that is: if you can stomach some of the low-roads this forum takes every now and then (e.g. the topic of your defense of one innocent Ray Franz).
I appreciated (VERY much) your comments about our Brother Franz. Your insights into the man harmonize completely with what I've come to know about him since first reading Crisis, although I've never had the privilege of ever speaking with him either on the phone or in person.
One thing you said at the end of your first post stands out:
It might even be possible to entertain a suspicion that the 80-year-old Ray had perhaps begun feeling the fringes of senility. But a careful reading of Ray's response brings me great joy because I can see he is ever the spiritual, clear-thinking man I have known...I heartily concur. I only wish I had the makings of what that man has in abundance. I'm barely half-way through my forties, so... perhaps there's time?
====================
Btw, I also enjoyed to the point of amusement what you found out (with references and links!) about "messenger" and the intriguing similarities his posts have to those of "silentlamb's". I award you as the recipient of the Laugh Of The Day.
I look forward to more of your comments on various topics as they come up and you find (make?) the time. Thanks again for what you said about Ray.
Thanks again, everyone...
especially....LDH. MULAN, LARC, JOY2BFREE, ONACRUSE, MYSELF, FARKEL, FLIP, MR ROCKY, ISLANDWOMAN, PATHOFTHORNS, NANCEE PARK, MINIMUS, COOLBREEZE, GUMBY, COJ, HAMPTONITE21, PRISCA, HURT, DISMEMBERED, JIM PENTON, THICHI, OZZIEPOST, TEEJAY,
Sorry if I missed/misspelled any names. I wanted to express my own appreciation for all the people who know Ray well enough to understand why I added my own thoughts. Even in trying to do the right thing, there is always the danger of stirring up an issue that should be allowed to die as quickly as we can let it. But I was very happy to see that positive comments and support far outweighed anything else.
For those who expressed an interest, I was raised a JW. My great-grandfather worked for CTRussell and, of course JW grandparents, parents and dozens of JW relatives and friends made up my entire world. It was expected that Bethel would be the appropriate career choice, and it started out well, with a great job that even included a bit of work outside the country, and an almost instant friend within the GB (not Ray) who gave me access to his substantial personal library. (Category/Topic disclaimer: only my ego was stroked.)
Although it had nothing to do with my job, I was asked by this GB member to do some Biblical research into a favorite JW topic. I couldn't find much support for it and it made me start questioning some things that I spoke to my roommate about. He was able to get me invited to a discussion group within Bethel that I will always look back upon with pleasure. One of the most clear-thinking minds at Bethel allowed a small group of people to participate in a Bible study like no other I had ever seen in my life. Merely reading the Bible in context brought a rush of new understanding. After one study, I could never look at the Bible again the way most JWs look at it. The "conductor" was careful but he knew that those who were listening carefully were being prepared for what was actually going on behind the scenes within the GB, in Writing -- and what to expect within the next couple of years.
This actually helped me, my brother, several of my close friends and colleagues to be able to see through the hypocrisy of the 1980 witchhunts. About 20 of my friends were all out within the next year or two. Many of their experiences are in Ray's books. I am still currently working with a few JWs at various stages of their exit, so I can't say much more about myself, without jeopardizing their personal choices. I am not involved in any major effort to take on the Organization in any way, but I support and applaud the good accomplishments of those who are. Some people know my own history and I try to stay available for support when they ask for it. I don't seek them out and I rarely even encourage anyone to leave the JWs. In the words of one of my spiritual mentors at Bethel, at least I've enjoyed trying to help people so that they have "a cushion to fall back on when the Organization pulls the chair out from under them." (Of course, I mean the social/psychological/religious support structure.)
In the interests of clarification, let me add that, thanks to so many of you, there is now plenty of support available for those who will need it. Therefore, if the motive is right, I don't think there is anything wrong with going right up to individual JWs to pull the chairs out from under them, or even going right up to overturn the tables in the Temple itself. That's anyone's choice, if they have the desire, the resources and, hopefully, have the wisdom and ability to do more good than harm.
Cheers,
Gilgamesh
