Why we should stick together.

Pleasuredome

There's that wonderful quote by a guy called Pastor Niemoller, who was arrested in Germany by the Nazis and thrown in jail, where he said:

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the Trade Unionists, but I was not a Trade Unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then, when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me."

i suppose this can be related to a certain argument that taken place recently. the real power lies with the collective rather than individuals. this is why we should stick together.

ozziepost

Noble thoughts, Pleasuredome, but what should we "stick together" to? Are you claiming that a db is a society or organisation? Is it even a fellowship?

From all the bickering here of late, I'd hate to think that this is all there was after leaving the abuse of the Borg. You're surely not advocating that this db is the substitute for the WTS? I'd suggest you make it your goal to "widen out" and seek the "real life".

Cheers, Ozzie

Pleasuredome

is there not a common goal in all of us for the WTS to change? part of my "widening out" was to come to a site like this to learn and perhaps help others to learn. i dont see this db as a society or a fellowship, just an area where people who have an interest in the whole JW thing can come and communicate. i see there being a specific intent for doing that, and that is change for the WTS, perhaps not for 100% of people here, but for the vast majority i think.

perhaps you like to share your thoughts with me on what the "real life" is?

ozziepost

is there not a common goal in all of us for the WTS to change?

No, I'm sorry, you're mistaken, there is not a COMMON goal in all of us for the Borg to change. Maybe some feel that way, but certainly not all. I, for one, hold out little hope of their changing, and even if they did, they still would not be worthy of my membership.

They (the WTS) stands in the place where it ought not be, namely Christ. For a Christian, the ONLY mediator is the Son. That is where true freedom lies for a Christian.

For an exDub who is a non-Christian, freedom means the power to choose, something they weren't allowed to do previously.

It seems to me that too many, whilst proclaiming themselves exDub, are in fact still bound to the Borg. They haven't "moved on" in their lives, taking advantage of the freedom that they have either fought for, or been afforded.

Cheers, Ozzie

Trauma_Hound

I was accused by my Aunt of being a member of an apostate organisation, my reply was "Really? What's the name of it, I don't remember joining anything."

Pleasuredome

if you dont hold out much hope for them changing why do you moan about them?

rwagoner

I Think we've spoken in chat before if my memory serves me right. I, for one, agree with you. EVERYONE here may not desire to see the WTS change or believe that it can, but those of us who do need to stop fighting over which issue is more important or why someone is vocal on one issue an not another.

I was not sexually abused while in the org, nor did I know people who were until I began to explore online so while I certainly support SilentLambs, I don't feel qualified to be too vocal about the issue. I have not had experience with the Blood issue, so again I leave that to those who know it. I try to focus my efforts on shunning, which I know personally, doctrinal issues, and just downright lies by the org.

If the WTS is chipped away ON ALL SIDES there WILL be change. The change may not be disolving the ORG or voting out the GB but if 1 person leaves because of something WE do thats enough. Now that may sound hokey but isn't it true ? 1 less child abused ? 1 less Prisoner of the Watchtower ? 1 MORE person free to think for themselves ? 1 less person starting a JW Study ?What is that worth ?

Any military person will tell you that you stand a better chance to win a battle if you make best use of the skills of your troops and attack from several fronts.

Let those who are able to draw national attention do it, while others chip away on other issues. Many R&F in the org will never be able to accept that the ORG would cover something like the abuse issue up, they are too lost in the myth of the love of the ORG. But those same people my begin to question a little if they saw the documentation on the UN or Military contracts. People are different and we should be looking for ANY way to cast a little doubt.

The other isse that was brought up recently...by you even maybe PD...was educating the NON-JW's on the issues. I've read a few examples of great ways (funny too I think personally) to bring public attention to the evils of the org. Dress up and follow the field services teams and distribute SL or other anti-jw liturature as they go door to door OR simply follow them and hold a sign at their car while they go around the neighborhood. With all of the New stories and editorials about the problems in the catholic church recently perhaps a letter to the editor or local media asking why there is no coverage of the WTS issue.

My point being (don't you love it when I FINALLY get to the point !) that instead of fighting we should respect the fact that we each have our own issues and talents to contribute to the fight against the WTS and none is better or worse, more or less important and most importantly ALL ARE WELCOME. Also as Ozzie pointed out we should respect that some choose not to play the game at all and others are not able, and thats fine too. ; But is serves no purpose to waste our energies fighting here with each other while we could be chipping away at the org and educating the non-jw's.

RandyW

Edited by - rwagoner on 1 November 2002 9:40:56

Rogue

Although some may want to just enjoy the freedom from the Watchtower Org and develop their own type of spirituality, there are others that have a more militant bent.

I for one would like to see a central data base for ALL the information on the workings, history, scandals, and sundry current dilemas faccing the WT org.

Some Ex Jw's, I'm sure, would like to see a more united and organised attack on the WT org.

I personally have been frustrated that there is very little we can do to really hurt those b**tards!

Trauma_Hound

"if you dont hold out much hope for them changing why do you moan about them?"

If you don't care, then why do you bother to respond to my post, and act like an assclown? The fact of the matter is, this is my family, my favorite aunt and uncle, the people that were never judgemental of me, or anyone else.

rwagoner

TH,

I can understand that...my parents are both still in the org, and even though they shun me they've never called me an Apostate *L*...

The thoughts I've seen mentioned are directed at the organzation not toward individuals, except those mentioned as possible abuses and the like. I think that the hard part for some of us who desire to take a more active role against thw WTS is that we need to remember that not everyone feels this way. We're just a little "gung-ho" sometimes and it can be frustrating to see SO MANY people who feel harmed by the org in some way or another but then remember that so few who feel that they are able to taking action or that action is even worth it.

I respect your position but hope you can see why a hint of frustration may come across in posts occassionally.

Why we should stick together.

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