TR, I think if I was in a position of power and someone made an acusation over something that supposedly happened 30 years ago, I would ignore it whether I was innocent or guilty. If innocent, why drag your name before the courts, the media and the public? If guilty, why drag your name before the courts, the media and the public?
Pedophilia and the FDS
by LoneWolf 33 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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DannyBear
Lonewolf,
Individual men and women within the ranks high and low of the organization, share one common denominator. Simply put...fanatical, unyielding belief, that JEHOVAH GOD is behind them.
With such a mindset, it is not hard to explain away almost any weakness, fault, crime, or so called sin of the flesh. Once the opiate of 'confession' has been applied, even murder, can be washed away in the 'blood of Christ's redemption'. Lest we forget, we all shared in that mentality at one time or another. Even if we took the tried and true 'leave it in Jah's hands' we shared in the culpability.
Most of us have had the 'scales' removed from our eye's of perception, and can now clearly see what you reveal.
The question remains; Just how much blame, just how much guilt, can we attribute to those still wearing the full face mask of JEHOVAH KNOW'S?
I tend to think herk has presented a rational view of what is going on. We need to exercise more care than those never ensnared by 'spiritual brotherhood of Jah'. We of all people can and should relate to why they do what they do.
ONLY FACTS AND PROOF, beyond a shadow of a doubt, will suffice to bring guys like JarAss, and any others accused, to justice. All the marches, all the stuffed lambs, all the shouting, all the emotion, mean nothing until and when proof is provided.......
Danny
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waiting
sorry, double posted. ugh
Edited by - waiting on 1 December 2002 18:57:20
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waiting
Hello Danny,
ONLY FACTS AND PROOF, beyond a shadow of a doubt, will suffice to bring guys like JarAss, and any others accused, to justice. - dannybear
A Court might bring accused men to justice - if there are enough facts & proof, and if the jury/judge is in the mood to agree. And if the judgement isn't overthrown in Appeals. And most importantly, which lawyer is more convincing......which has nothing to do with true FACTS AND PROOF.
"Beyond a shadow of a doubt?" Lol....tall demand from a man/woman who was raped 1/2/3/4 decades ago. Would assume that they've bathed since then. It's a hard fight for any victim - and I heartily salute those who have the endurance to "fight the fine fight."
All the marches, all the stuffed lambs, all the shouting, all the emotion, mean nothing until and when proof is provided.......dannybear
All the above are necessary, imho, to bring attention to the "facts and proof." The victims of the Catholic Church found the same thing - publicity is absolutely necessary because they're going against an entrenched religion with a lot of power. The WTBTS doesn't have that same power, except over their followers. But the WTBTS has secrecy - and it's a mighty weapon.
The publicity garnered by the marches, lambs, shouting, emotion, facts & proof gives other victims a chance to explore their own feelings. Why's that important? Because unless the victims can overcome their own shame & fear, they won't come forward. If they don't come forward - why, there's no FACTS AND PROOF that can be introduced, because no one's talking.
I have a daughter who refused to utter a word outloud about her molesters. She is an exceptional woman - but no one can stir her emotions on this matter. But with all the publicity that Silentlambs has raised......she's listening. I know, because after 10 yrs., she's spoken to me about it recently.
Unless the victims come forward, it doesn't matter how many facts, how much proof is had - there is no case if they won't testify.
And, as of this time......who seems to deal better with jw molestation victims than the rest of us? Bill Bowen and the Silentlambs Organization.
Btw, my daughter (at approx age 10) was molested 20 yrs ago by a brother who was also raping his teenage daughter regularily. 10 yrs. later, my daughter told me about herself & I called the elders in his congregation. The elders had just received a detailed letter from his daughter outlining the years of rape by him. EXACTLY what kind of "FACTS & PROOF, beyond a shadow of a doubt," would those women be able to provide which would convince you that the man was guilty?
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 1 December 2002 19:0:57
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DannyBear
Hello back Waiting,
I understand and appreciate what you said.
I was trying to focus on LoneWolf's reasoning as to the accused/rumored FDS member's complicity. Also some have claimed that solid proof does exisit in the matter of TJ.
Imo the time for emotion, marching, banner's etc is over. It served it's purpose, just as you have described by your daughter's reaction.
It is now time for as many of those 5,000 abuse victims as possible, to make thier cases. I think that is in the works as we speak.
Danny
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waiting
Backatcha bear,
I was trying to focus on LoneWolf's reasoning as to the accused/rumored FDS member's complicity. - danny
Agree fully with that.
But in all actuality.....with all the marches, lambs, etc., etc., - have you talked with people who aren't jw's ----and have absolutely no clue that there's a problem with jw's? Or who jw's are????? Almost all persons recognize the problem within the Catholics - but not jw's. I have - only one man I talked to knew about the problem of child molestation among jw's. Not one knew about shunning.
Therefore, "advertise, advertise, advertise." Secrecy is a child molester's greatest weapon.
waiting
Edited by - waiting on 1 December 2002 19:21:50
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Lady Lee
I agree with waiting - there is still a huge need to inform people both the public and any JWs who will listen
I suspect we have only touched the tip of the iceberg when it comes to serious problems in the borg
hmmm that reminds me - I still have a stack of
stop WT abuse NOW
cards
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LoneWolf
To all --- It was a pleasant surprise to see this month old thread resurrected. I had been disappointed that there hadn't been more input.
Forgive me for not expressing much right now. I work three nights a week (at present), Saturday, Sunday, and Monday, in shifts that average between 12 and 14 hours a night, not to mention the commute of 45 minutes each way. That doesn't leave much time for sleep, let alone answers.
Herk and Boerean --- I agree with your views very much, however I also feel that there is more to this particular situation. It will take more time than these few minutes now to express them well, so I'll have to postpone them for a few days. Some of them are points that I have not seen elsewhere. Herk, I would deeply appreciate your insight on the personalities involved.
waiting and DannyBear --- There is much to be said on those points. Thank you very much. waiting, I'm sorry to hear that your daughter too has experienced such treatment. It is that "shame and fear" that I am especially concerned with, and have been working on ways to counteract them. Your input and observations, as well as those of RevMalk and anyone else who has actually lived these circumstances would be especially treasured.
Until then --- take care and again many thanks.
LoneWolf
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LoneWolf
Herk and Berean ---
Again, I deeply appreciate your words and thoughts. But before condemning me too thoroughly for my words, keep this in mind: I was disfellowshipped nearly 15 years ago for something that I never did, and it is well known that I didn't do it. All the elders here have acknowledged that and so have many that are much higher. I've been asked quite a few times if I would like to be reinstated, and I have always answered "Yes, but first we will discuss the circumstances of my being disfellowshipped." That they refuse to do.
The following is how I described my position to one of the individuals who is higher than an elder. It's part of a letter I hand delivered to him and later posted here on the board. This is the address:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=16556&site=3
This is the excerpt:
WHY I'M RELUCTANT TO SUBMIT A LETTER REQUESTING REINSTATEMENT
1. This Organization claims to be Jehovah's chosen path for people to approach him, to the exclusion of all others, and is under his divine direction. If this is true, then there are certain things that one could expect of it. That includes:
That scripture should take precedence over any other consideration, including such things as the personal pride of people in official positions or any established procedures. He speaks of himself as "loving" (1 John 4:8), "just" (Deut. 32:4), "understanding" (John 12:12), "merciful and gracious" (Ex. 34:6), and "good and ready to forgive" (Ps. 86:5), among other things. Therefore, any organization that is indeed Jehovah's spokesman will put these qualities first and foremost and no procedures and/or pomposity would be allowed to interfere. If they don't do this, then they are liars for having claimed to be Jehovah's servants in the first place and are serving themselves instead.Yes, it is true that all organizations are imperfect and cannot live up to Jehovahs standards completely. But we must not use that fact as an excuse to encourage wrongdoing by accepting a minimal amount as normal and then allowing it to slide by without doing all that's humanly possible to correct it. That someone wishes to save face is not important and their problem, not mine. To compromise with this is to become part of the problem.
That is why I pose the question to everyone, especially those in Brooklyn: "If I did nothing deserving of disfellowshipping, for what reason should I need to do anything (other than calling it to their attention) to be reinstated?" Those who actually are Christian in the true sense of the word would be hastening to do something about it as soon as they became aware of it, not demanding that I jump through hoops in order to guarantee that their grandeur remains unsmirched.
This is also the reason that I declare openly that if this is indeed Jehovah's organization, then I will be vindicated. If it is not, then for what reason should I care? In addition, if it is not, then of what use is either their approval or disapproval?
If the organization that I gave 45 years of my life to cannot bring itself to do even this simple, elementary act of Christianity, then it looks like to me that I've wasted those 45 years. Worse, I've taught my family to have faith in an organization that follows the conduct of the rest of Christendom in using the name as a front to hide their personal agendas and pride behind.
And I'm not interested in that nonsense about going along with such things in order to keep reproach away from Jehovah's name. See item 2 below.
(You may find the rest of the letter interesting too.)
Another factor you might wish to consider is that for 5 years after that DFing, I made it a point to NOT say or do anything, for I had no desire to do an injustice to anyone. I knew that I was too emotionally wrought up to function in a fair manner.
I relate these things in order to assure you that I've not said the former things lightly or without reason.
Another factor in my own situation is that I am not closely connected with the top leaders as you two apparently are (or have been). This makes things a little more difficult, as I need accurate information in order to be effective. Long distance analysis is not easy.
Yet regardless of distance, when things go wrong it is equally mandatory on all of us to speak up and say something. To illustrate, remember the time when the 12 spies came back from the promised land and 10 of them gave a bad report? Remember who received punishment? That's right, all of the men 30 years of age and older, which included the lowly such as the menservants and the shepherds in the field. Why? Because they didn't speak up.
However, to speak accurately and effectively, I have to have an accurate picture of the circumstances. Ergo, I pose questions such as the one at the beginning of this thread. Input such as yours helps considerably, and if those spoken of wished to speak, I would welcome theirs with open arms. However, I must agree with TR. The silence is deafening. I've had a bellyful of that tactic, which to me is the height of both arrogance and foolishness. When one goes to another with a problem and is treated in such a manner, that is an indication that they are anything but christian. Therefore, for some time now whenever anyone pulls that stunt with me (and there is something important riding on the outcome), then its "Abby-get-the-baby-the-dog-catchers-coming" because there's hell to pay and no holds barred.
(For an example of that, see "Spanking a Body of Elders" http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=27787&site=3 . This was a situation where I was concerned about my daughters treatment by her husband (an elders son), and fed up with the endless evil motives that I was being credited with. The letter freaks some people out, but her situation improved considerably and I've never again had some damned fool elder accuse me of some stupid evil motive.
I'm right on the ragged edge of this with the entire outfit now. They use head games to control us ("Were holy, you ain't"; "Sass us and God will zap you"; etc., etc.), and their cynical arrogance is monumental. Im including them all, for the same reason that Jehovah included all men 30 and under in the situation with the 10 spies. They knew, but they were too cowardly to say anything.
What the Society apparently doesn't know (and I do) is that mind games are as easily used against entire organizations as they are individuals. You can judge by the sample above as to whether I speak truth or not.
Such questions as those I posted originally help me get the inside knowledge of the men and their personalities that I need to know as to where they are vulnerable. I see no reason to use a cannon to blast them to pieces when a little egg white in the fuel tank will incapacitate them just as well.
Now, as to the proof of such matters: No, I would not try to convict any of them on the basis of facts that we have available right now. However, neither will I cut them any slack, any more than I would an accused pedophile who wanted to baby sit my kids. This is tripled in such cases as this one where all they do is maintain a haughty silence.
And keep in mind they ARE baby sitting my kids --- in a spiritual sense, and they ARE molesting them --- in the same spiritual sense. How? Heres another quote from the first letter above:
To sum up: The manner in which these scriptures have been misconstrued and the resulting shift in teachings is not only utter hogwash, it has been an unmitigated disaster for the faith of millions. This includes those still in the organization, for the gullible have been led to place their faith on blind obedience. Thats not only building on sand, its preventing them from forming the answer that Jehovah desires from us. Both are forms of futility.
As to those who can see through it --- They stay in, not due to love for Jehovah and his ways, but due to the fear of the devastation that this organization will deliberately wreak upon their families if they don't go along. That too is a form of futility. Am I to compromise with this?
A final thought before answering some of your specifics: The type of arrogant self-worship that it takes to rape someone spiritually is identical to that required to rape one physically. Do I feel that the GB are capable of raping someone physically? Yes, for that reason.
I know Jaracz personally, and I was a friend of Greenlees and Chitty, as well as other members of the governing body. I'm no longer a JW, partly because of my disdain for the antics of persons like Jaracz.
Any information, favorable or not, that you would feel free to add to this would be entirely welcome. Surely Greenlees and Chitty must have had some good points, and I'm quite interested in why you hold Jaracz in disdain. Was this a personality clash, or were there specific causes for it?
Would any of us want to go through life having such a terrible false charge hanging over our heads, if indeed we were innocent?
No, we wouldn't. But rightly or wrongly, if such a thing did happen the effects of it spread to many more than ourselves. Some people have the maturity and love necessary to step down in cases like these, as they know that their continuing on in a high position will harm the very cause for which they work. When they continue on, it demonstrates that they care more for themselves than they do for either Jehovah or the sheep. Do you remember that one of the requirements for being an elder is that they be "free from accusation"?
There are plenty of things wrong about JWs and the WT Society that should be exposed and condemned.
LOL. Isnt that the truth!
I see no reason why anyone should feel the need to invent additional crimes for which there isn't a shred of proof. When we do such things, we show ourselves worthy of the same condemnation we're trying to pin on the persons we've accused. Additionally, we end up totally lacking any credibility when we actually have something that should be brought to the attention of the world.
I feel the term "invent" is inappropriate here. Certainly I haven't "invented" anything, as the accusations are in a public forum and have been announced to the world. All I've done is weigh the implications of them, should they be true. In addition, I wouldn't wish to accuse those who make such allegations that they "invented" them either, for if they are true, then all they have done is testify truthfully.
We may simply not know, but at the same time, when the stakes are as high as these are, we have both a right and a duty to take precautions. Such a limited reaction will prevent much of the loss of credibility you mention.
This whole dilemma illustrates beautifully why lying is such a despicable sin.
Berean --- You dont seem to be posting as much lately. I am missing your thoughts.
Til later.
Tom Howell
Alias: LoneWolf
Edited by - LoneWolf on 6 December 2002 9:25:4
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JT
Ask yourself something: How did Jaracz get to be at the top of a "christian" organization when almost nothing about his personality reflects anything that is christian? Which of the fruitages of the spirit could you associate with his conduct?
your question is a good one and the answer is very simple - wt is not a religion it is a biz- for those like myself who know Jarcz there is one constant that we know about Jaracz- when i was at bethel from day one it was well known that he was known as Mr. Organization- he is often called THE BOSS-
as one moves up the corporate ladder regardless of the type of biz one of the characteristics of most powerful CEO/high ranking officers is NOT being NICE AND HAVING A WARM personlity
iN FACT TO FIND on like that is the exception not the rule
well in wt one of the things you quickly notice is that in gerneral the most powerful guys are some of the Coldest and Standoffish guys you want to meet-
if you look up the word Society Man in the dictionary you will see a picture of Jaracz, while other GBs are just as responible for the rules, Jaracz stands head and shoulder above the rest
in fact old timers at bethel compare him to Knorr and Rutherford in terms of how cold they deal with folks
as a young guy we used to joke that he has his "Drawers" all layed out for the week in his chesterdrawers
we used to always say we would love to see his calendar for we knew that he scheduled waht DAY AND WHAT TIME AND HOW LONG HE WOULD HAVE SEX WITH THIS WIFE
just because he was Mr Organization
he like so many other CO, DO Branch members and Bethel Heavies they get thier job by selling thier soul being kind and nice doesn't get you up the corp ladder in most organization and that is why wt has so many traits that you find in the corp world,
yet folks here continue to try and connect wt to god/relgion/bible all that is just a good FRONT COMPANY
once you stop trying to relate wt to god and to a biz like it is - all of a sudden so many things fall right into place in helping one to understand what we were part of
as long as we run around talking about wt is fullfilling some bible prophecy - we are just fooling ourselves-
it is like Dorthy still talking about the Wizard of Oz was going to get her back to Kansas- folks we have SEEN THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN - call wt what it is, not what it claims