Questions for Creationists

by IronGland 184 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    Thi-Chi,

    If you think that stating that having seen a poster from a high school in 1965 that says we descended from chimpanzees is an accurate reflection of evolutionary thought at that time, then you are an even bigger idiot than you seem.

    Secondly, when religions, e.g.,the WTS or fundamentalists state their opions then it is usally supposed to be Divine writ. Scientists always acknowledge that their findings are open to change - in fact other scientists put their theories to objective tests. That is a huge and significant difference. If you think that any advances in science have proceeded in a straight line then you are obviously ignorant of how science and technology advances. Newton's laws are now "rubbish" by your standards since it is now known to be incorrect. The automobile is a failure since we rejected carburretors for fuel injection. The list goes on and only idiots can fail to see the difference between statements of religious "truth" and the devlopment of scientific thought. So I am not concerned, but encouraged, by the fact that science advances by overturning flawed ideas.

    As for new earth creationism, and the Bible account of the flood. These are absolutely inconsistent with the evidence - and that is apparent from creationists absolute inability to provide alternative explanations for such simple questions about teh fossil record, or the existence of ring species, or the fact that all life uses the same genetic code.

    But, Thi Chi, I really don't care what you think or believe. Your statements about purges in the "scientific collections" are ludicrous. Any published piece of scientific literature can be accessed through a decent university library. If you aren't interested in educating yourself then don't.

    Gedanken

  • rem
    rem

    ThiChi,

    LOL, I've done more research on this Forbidden Archeology book and it is truly laughable! First of all, I don't think the reviews you posted are as flattering as you think they are. I mean, did you even really read them?

    Second, I'm not sure how scholarly a work is when it uses sources such as the Weekly World News. LOL They actually used a story from a tabloid as 'evidence' for thier fundamentalist Hindu claims. Can't you see that these 'researchers' have an anti-science agenda? It's clear as day.

    The proof is in the pudding:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/spheres.html

    Here is another book review for you. By the way, this review was done by a reputable scientist. I mean really - you actually posted a review by a contributer to International Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine and another source that actually praised the Creation book by the Watchtower.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/groves.html

    Enjoy,

    rem

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    rem,

    The bit I liked was where it said "lab technicians" couldn't explain their origin. Now, a lab technician is basically someone who washes glassware and does the grunge work in a lab. No disrespect to these folks, many of whom are students doing part time work, but they would hardly be authorities on such a thing. And Charlton Heston? Maybe he should have tried to shoot a few open.

    And then Thi Chi's sources quote the WTS and its 11 million books on "Evolution and Creation" glowingly. But the clincher has to be the poster from the 60s showing a monkey, and therefore, evolution must be a hoax. I suppose Gary Larson's famous Far Side cartoon showing the descent of man from monkeys and back again to hunched up computer programmers (I think it was the Far Side) is also irrefutable evidence that evolution is wrong.

    It really is a losing battle trying to discuss anything with these types of "true believers." They have absolutely no explanation for the data that does exist and think that throwing hissy fits about how evolutionary theory has changed somehow, or inventing blue spheres, excuse the total failure of creationism - not to mention the Flood - to explain anything.

    Gedanken

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    G:

    Look, I never stated I "believed" that we came from chimps based on a school poster. Can you read? I was demonstrating the misinformation people like you expect us to believe over time. Can you name the other link displayed on my poster that has since been revised? Starts with an N. I never believed the bull Shit back then and I have been exonerated as time has passed.

    Your claim that every bit is analyzed and reviewed as a net for honesty shows your ignorance. Your refusal to address the revisions and the failure to answer the basic questions here presented demonstrates your dogmatic narrow-mindedness.

    Putting words in peoples mouths and your insults expose your poor situation you are in. It seems to be a gift with you. Once more, you prove my point.

    Again you did not answer the questions posted. Try to stay on topic and focus! Here they are once more as a benifit to you:

    Why has a long list of problematic findings not been treated scientifically?

    Why are there purges in the scientific collections?

    Why do they ignore imbalances between chronological and geological assumptions?""

    REM: your TV review (lol) is very vague and just another example of trashing without substance. I would not consider The British Science Journal a poor review. In each review, some issues are conceded as needing an answer. Showing both good and bad points shows honesty, something that is very lacking with the Evo bunch.

    Edited by - thichi on 5 November 2002 11:14:10

    Edited by - thichi on 5 November 2002 12:4:19

  • rem
    rem

    ThiChi,

    You can keep supporting this trash as long as you want. I guess you'll never realize how much of a joke these guys are. They are Hindu fundamentalists. They are not scientists. They use bad sources for their material - this has been proven. They believe, because of their religion, that man has been on earth for billions of years. Their agenda couldn't be clearer: they are not interested in truth. They are interested in using any (dishonest) means possible to promote their pet theory. This is not science and it does not deserve serious attention.

    You can say that the rebuttals are vague all you want, but you are wrong. They focused on a couple examples that show how shoddy the research is. There is no sense in trusting the rest of the examples if the first few you come accross are shown to be taken from unreliable sources or ignore contradictory evidence.

    And as far as your 1960's Evolution poster goes, I'm positive that you misinterpreted it (just as you seem adamant on misinterpreting modern evolution and not being able to recognize the difference between good and bad research). Too bad you don't have a scan of it so I can show you where you are wrong. I don't trust your memory any more than I trust your ability to recognize good science over pseudoscience.

    rem

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    Thi Chi,

    100 years ago people taught in physics that the ether existed. By your arguments, then, physics was a flawed subject and should have been rejected as a field of study. You fail to understand that your arguments are not robust - you use them to support your narrow point of view, but if applied generally, then they would bring all human endeavor to a halt.

    : Why are there purges in the scientific collections?

    Specific examples, please.

    Gedanken

    ps: I didn't mean to imply that you believed it then or now - my point was that it is a stupid argument based on what I have said over and over, your argument is not robust.

    Edited by - Gedanken on 5 November 2002 12:21:14

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    REM:

    Your argument that if you believe in a God then you are not a Scientist, or that you are dishonest with your findings is absurd. Independent reviews demonstrate that some important questions have been raised (which I have posted twice) that should be addressed. Detailed information is presented in their work (over 900 pages) documenting missing and omitted findings over a course of a hundred years. However, you choose to ignore this and try to expunge their work based on their beliefs.

    You need to get off your ass and really explore what you take as gospel. Here is my point:

    ":There is no sense in trusting the rest of the examples if the first few you come accross are shown to be taken from unreliable sources or ignore contradictory evidence."

    Your hypocrisy in your standard is profound. If we use your standard of certain aspects of a theory now discounted (or at the very least, disputed) as applied to Evolution, then you and the evo bunch exhibit a poor track record too. Lets see if you can admit this point?

  • rem
    rem

    ThiChi,

    I never said anything about believers in god not being scientists. There are many deists who are great scientists. Do not put words in my mouth. Either you are purposefully being dishonest by doing this or you are lacking reading comprehension skills. The fact is that these particular people who wrote the book Forbidden Archeology are not scientists. They also happen to be Hindu fundamentalists. These guys are just as bad as conspiracy theorists and UFOlogists. This does not alarm you?

    Scientists have to go through a rigorous "peer review" process to get their papers published. While their papers are being peer reviewed, all of their sources are checked for accuracy. This is not something that average people writing a book have to do. This book would have never gotten published by a reputable scientific source because the research is so shoddy. If that's the level of accuracy that's acceptable to you, then that is your problem.

    You will need to start giving specific examples if you want to continue this discussion. Provide specific examples of coverups and purges within science - not just "there are 900 pages of coverups in this book written by Hindu fundamentalists." How many examples of shoddy research will it take for you to discount these 'researchers' as frauds? Two? Ten? Twenty? When does it end with you?

    How about you get off your ass and learn what real science is?

    rem

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Gedanken:

    Good points. However, would you not agree that Physics and Evolution take on very different dynamics. The implications to belief as to human origins entails many factors that rock the foundations of our beliefs. As such ,I feel you are comparing apples and oranges.

    Proof? As the reviews state, Dr. Cremo raises some great questions in his book. Here is an example of omissions in the record:

    Cremo, Michael A. (1999) "Forbidden Archeology of the Paleolithic: How Pithecanthropus Influenced the Treatment of Evidence for Extreme Human Antiquity" Presented at the "History of Archeology Session" at the European Association of Archaeologists Conference, Bournemouth, UK, September 15-18, 1999.

    Abstract:

    Over the past two centuries, researchers in Europe and elsewhere have found anatomically modern human skeletal remains and artifacts in geological contexts extending to the Pliocene and earlier. In the late nineteenth century, these discoveries attained wide circulation among archeologists and researchers in allied fields (geology, paleontology, anthropology). At this early point in the history of archeology, a fixed scheme of human evolution had not yet emerged, and researchers were able to approach the evidence of extreme human antiquity with little theoretical bias. With the discovery of Pithecanthropus (Java man) in the late nineteenth century and the discovery of Australopithecus in the early twentieth century, archeologists and others were finally able to construct a credible and widely accepted theoretical picture of human origins, with the anatomically modern human type arriving rather late on the scene. This caused the earlier evidence for extreme human antiquity to be dropped from active discourse, and eventually forgotten. In the late twentieth century, finds that could be taken as evidence for extreme human antiquity continue to be made. But archeologists often interpret them to fit within the now generally accepted scheme of human evolution. It is therefore possible that commitment to a particular evolutionary scheme has resulted in a process of knowledge filtration, whereby a large set of archeological evidence has dropped below the horizon of cognition. This filtering, although unintentional, has left current researchers with an incomplete data set for building and rebuilding our ideas about human origins.

    Cremo, Michael A. (1997) "The Later Discoveries of Boucher de Perthes at Moulin Quignon and Their Bearing on the Moulin Quignon Jaw Controversy" XXth International Congress of History of Science, Lige, Belgium.

    This paper was accepted for presentation at the XXth International Congress of History of Science, at Lige, Belgium, July 20-26, 1997, in the section Earth Sciences in the Contemporary Period (Since 1800).

    Abstract

    When Jacques Boucher de Perthes reported stone tools in the Pleistocene gravels of northern France at Abbeville, he was ignored by the French scientific establishment. Later, he was vindicated by English scientists, who came to the Abbeville region and confirmed his discoveries. But some of these same English scientists later turned on him when he reported the discovery of the famous Moulin Quignon jaw. Eventually the discovery was proved a hoax. That is how the standard history goes. But when considered in detail, the hoax theory does not emerge with total clarity and certainty. Boucher de Perthes felt the English scientists who opposed him were influenced by political and religious pressures at home. In order to restore his reputation and establish the authenticity of the Moulin Quignon jaw, Boucher de Perthes conducted several additional excavations at Moulin Quignon, which yielded hundreds of human bones and teeth. But by this time, important minds had been made up, and no attention was paid to the later discoveries, which tended to authenticate the Moulin Quignon jaw. This lack of attention persists in many histories of archeology. This paper details the later discoveries of Boucher de Perthes at Moulin Quignon, addresses possible reasons for their scanty presence in (or complete omission from) many histories of the Moulin Quignon affair, and offers some suggestions about the role the historian of archeology might play in relation to the active work of that science.

    Cremo, Michael A. (1999) "Forbidden Archeology of the Early and Middle Pleistocene: Evidence for Physiologically and Culturally Advanced Humans." World Archeological Congress 4,

    Capetown, South Africa, January 8-14, 1999.

    Abstract:

    In 1998, M. Morwood reported stone tools at 800,000 years on Flores Island, Indonesia, 15 miles from nearest land. Morwood concluded toolmaking hominids arrived by boat. According to standard ideas, the only hominid then in existence was Homo erectus. Boatmaking and sailing are normally associated with anatomically modern humans. Morwood chose to elevate Homo erectus culturally, but one could also elevate the Flores hominid physiologically to Homo sapiens sapiens. Anatomically modern human femurs of the same age from Java offer corroborating evidence. In 1997, H. Thieme reported advanced wooden hunting spears in German coal deposits about 400,000 years old. Spears are normally associated exclusively with anatomically modern humans. Thieme chose to raise the cultural status of European Homo erectus, but another possibility is to posit anatomically modern humans. Discoveries of anatomically modern human bones by Boucher de Perthes at Abbeville, France, in deposits the same age as the German spears, offer corroborating evidence. The paper reviews other skeletal and artifactual evidence for anatomically modern humans in the Early and Middle Pleistocene in Africa, North America, and South America, in addition to the Asian and European evidence mentioned above. This evidence is consistent with accounts of extreme human antiquity found in the ancient Sanskrit writings of India.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    REM:

    Here are your words:

    "You can keep supporting this trash as long as you want. I guess you'll never realize how much of a joke these guys are. They are Hindu fundamentalists. They are not scientists. They use bad sources for their material - this has been proven. They believe, because of their religion, that man has been on earth for billions of years. Their agenda couldn't be clearer: they are not interested in truth. They are interested in using any (dishonest) means possible to promote their pet theory. This is not science and it does not deserve serious attention."

    Your implications are my proof. You offer nothing else here except false claims. I have listed reviews from respectable journals and now abstracts submitted to respected fourms. Have you read their work and studied their claims? Or are you just "cut and pasting" your origins web site for your shallow gratification?

    So what if they are Hindu? What is your point then? Does that make them dishonest? Your words here cited are just pure rubbish. Your implications are very telling. Let the readers decide!

    """They believe, because of their religion...." What the F**K does that mean? How do you know?

    Edited by - thichi on 5 November 2002 13:59:31

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