DF'ed for Organ Transplants?

by NeonMadman 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hurt
    hurt

    Gary: "Christian Witnesses of Jehovah .. consider all transplants between humans as cannibalism." {AWAK Jun 8 1968 21} [Amazingly this 1968 item got left out of the CD-ROM versions of AWAKE..."

    Blondie:"Gary, you seemed to say that the word "cannabilism" was left out of the 1968 Awake on the WT-CD."

    It seemed Gary meant the Society left out Awake! material written in 1968. You've correctly pointed out that pre-1970 Awake! material do not appear in the CD-ROM (I have the 1999 edition). They can't risk adding the older material in the new CD ROM's. They'll be hitting new lows in the program of selective (mis)information if they do that.

    For those who may want to take a look at some realy old materials, the links below could be helpful. Six volumes of C.T. Russel's Studies of the Scriptures. Any JW seeking the truth of the JW message and claims should find them instructive.

    *http://www.eskimo.com/~billz/Truth/Volumes/

    *http://www.bibletoday.com/V1/Default.htm

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Who started the debate? What is your interest? May I debate you on the practices and principles of your religion and post that debate to a public forum?

    Good questions. The debate started exactly as you see it in the transcript. My profile on Yahoo states that I am a former Jehovah's Witness. She IM'ed me with the first message in the transcript, apparently after reading my profile. Nothing is changed or left out from our actual conversation (except an unanswered IM that I sent her later on suggesting that she check out a page written by AlanF from Randy Watters' site that touched on the subject).

    My interest is in helping people to escape a cult. As a Christian, I would also like to see them come to Christ if possible, but even if they do not, I believe they have a right to know the truth about what they are involved in.

    Are you suggesting that it was unethical for me to post the transcript here? There was no personal discussion in it, we just talked about JW related issues. I didn't think I was violating a confidence, since no confidential issues were discussed. I posted it primarily because you asked me what the point was of wanting to know whether JW's could be df'ed for taking transplants, and I thought that if you could read the actual flow of the conversation, it might help you (and others who would be in a position to assist) to understand why that was an important point.

    You may be right when you say that "debate with a believing JW is like being in a pissing contest with a skunk," but then again, how many of us really came out 100% on our own? The vast majority of those who came out of the JW's (or any cult) did so because, at some point, in some way, someone asked them a question they could not answer. Most of us took quite a while to figure it all out, but someone (or several someones) had to plant the seed. I'm just trying to be Johnny Appleseed, in my own way - asking the questions they can't answer. What happens from there is between them and the Lord. But if they offer an answer that is invalid - as I believe that this lady did - then I feel a further obligation to set the record straight.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Many thanks, by the way, to all of you who provided references and other help with this issue. I'll be consolidating it and sending it to her shortly, and, if she responds, I'll let you know how it went.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    The Watchtower November 15, 1967

    page 702-4

    Questions from Readers

    Is there any Scriptural objection to donating ones body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source? W. L., U.S.A.

    A number of issues are involved in this matter, including the propriety of organ transplants and autopsies. Quite often human emotion is the only factor considered when individuals decide these matters. It would be good, though, for Christians to consider the Scriptural principles that apply, and then make decisions in harmony with these principles so as to be pleasing to Jehovah.Acts 24:16.

    First, it would be well to have in mind that organ transplant operations, such as are now being performed in an attempt to repair the body or extend a life-span, were not the custom thousands of years ago, so we cannot expect to find legislation in the Bible on transplanting human organs. Yet, this does not mean that we have no indication of Gods view of such matters.

    When Jehovah for the first time allowed humans to eat animal flesh, he explained matters this way to Noah: "A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that goes moving on the ground, and upon all the fishes of the sea. Into your hand they are now given. Every moving

    animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soulits bloodyou must not eat." (Gen. 9:2-4) That allowance was made to Noah, from whom every person now alive descended. Hence, it applies to all of us.

    Humans were allowed by God to eat animal flesh and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this include eating human flesh, sustaining ones life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people. Jehovah clearly made a distinction between the lives of animals and the lives of humans, mankind being created in Gods image, with his qualities. (Gen. 1:27) This distinction is evident in His next words. God proceeded to show that mans life is sacred and is not to be taken at will, as may be done with the animals to be used for food. To show disrespect for the sanctity of human life would make one liable to have his own life taken.Gen. 9:5, 6.

    When there is a diseased or defective organ, the usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body uses the food eaten to repair or heal the organ, gradually replacing the cells. When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others.

    It is of interest to note that in its discussion of cannibalism the

    Encyclopdia of Religion and Ethics, edited by James Hastings, Volume 3, page 199, has a section designated "Medical cannibalism." It points out that this is associated with the idea of obtaining strength or some medical virtue from the flesh of another human, adding: "The most remarkable example of this practice occurs in China. Among the poor it is not uncommon for a member of the family to cut a piece of flesh from arm or leg, which is cooked and then given to a sick relative. . . . The whole superstition in China is certainly connected with the idea that the eating of the human body strengthens the eater. . . . Among savages the practice is found of giving a sick man some blood to drink drawn from the veins of a relative." Some might argue that therapeutic practices involved in modern organ transplant operations are more scientific than such primitive treatment. Nonetheless, it is evident that men practicing medicine have not been beyond using treatments that amount to cannibalism if such have been thought justified.

    Modern science has developed many different types of operations that involve human body parts, some common and usually successful and others experimental and often unsuccessful. It is not our place to decide whether such operations are advisable or warranted from a scientific or medical standpoint. It would be well, though, for Christians faced with a decision in this regard to consider the indication as to Gods viewpoint presented in the Scriptures.Eph. 5:10.

    At present scientific researchers are starting to use artificial or animal parts where formerly human parts were thought necessary, such as in the case of cornea transplants. (See, for instance, ScienceNews for May 21, 1966, page 396, and Time for April 28, 1967, pages 68 and 70.) Whether wider use of such operations will be made, we do not know. Nor can we decide whether a Christian should accept some animal part as a transplant; that is for personal decision. (Gal. 6:5) However, we can be sure that in the future the time will come when all human medical operations will be unnecessary. (Rev. 21:4) Christians have strong evidence that the new order is near at hand when Jehovah the Great Physician will, through Jesus, do healing beyond the li

    mitations of medical science of today.Mark 8:22-25; John 11:43, 44; Acts 3:6, 7; Matt. 12:15.

    What should be done, though, when a Christian is asked to provide an organ for use in another person or to allow the body part of a deceased loved one to be so used? We might ask, If a Christian decided personally that he would not sustain his own life with the flesh of another imperfect human, could he conscientiously allow part of his flesh to be used in that way to sustain someone else?

    Even from a medical standpoint there is some question as to the wisdom and ethicalness of some transplants. One physician discussed this publicly in the AnnalsofInternalMedicine,

    citing the results of 244 kidney-transplant operations. In the majority of cases the recipient did not live more than a year after the operation. Then, commenting on the dangers for the volunteer who donates one of his kidneys, the doctor asked: "Is it right to subject a healthy person . . . to the possibility . . . of shortening his life by 25 or 30 years in order to extend anothers life by 25 or 30 months or less?" Reporting on this, Newsweek, of March 2, 1964, page 74, added that the doctor "offers no conclusive answer, but he suggests that the question needs to be asked more often."

    When it comes to deciding what to do with ones own body or with the body of a deceased loved one, for which a Christian is responsible, the apostle Pauls words at Romans 12:1 should not be overlooked: "I entreat you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason." Baptized Christians have dedicated their lives, bodies included, to do the will of Jehovah their Creator. In view of this, can such a person

    donate his body or part of it for unrestricted use by doctors or others? Does a human have a God-given right to dedicate his body organs to scientific experimentation? Is it proper for him to allow such to be done with the body of a loved one? These are questions worthy of serious consideration.

    Not to be overlooked is the use to which a dead body might be put. Would a Christian who, while living, refused to give his blood to be used as a transfusion for some other person, allow his body to be turned over to a group or to a person and possibly at that time have the blood removed and used for transfusion, as has been done with some cadavers? (See, for example, Awake!

    of October 22, 1962, page 30.) A person might feel that he could stipulate that his body not be used in that way; but if many persons in authority refuse to abide by a Christians wishes about blood when he is alive, what reason is there to believe they will show more respect for his wishes after his death? Would they use his organs in cannibalistic medical experiments?

    Our bodies are the creation of Jehovah God. (Ps. 100:3; 95:6; Job 10:8) Christians might allow apparently necessary surgery to be performed, such as to remove a diseased limb, but they do not needlessly mutilate their bodies created by Jehovah. Would allowing a body to be mutilated after death be showing respect for and appreciation of Gods creation? True, in some instances there may be legal requirements that Christians abide by, such as when the law requires a postmortem examination to determine the cause of death. (Rom. 13:1, 7; Mark 12:17) In such cases the next of kin can usually request that the organs not be removed for transplant or reuse. In this way, even though an autopsy might be required, the Christian can prevent misuse of the body of a loved one. But when such laws do not apply, the Christian can decide in such a way as to avoid unnecessary mutilation and any possible misuse of the body. Thus he will be able to have a clear conscience before God.1 Pet. 3:16.

    It should be evident from this discussion that Christians who have been enlightened by Gods Word do not need to make these decisions simply on the basis of personal whim or emotion. They can consider the divine principles recorded in the Scriptures and use these in making personal decisions as they look to God for direction, trusting him and putting their confidence in the future that he has in store for those who love him.Prov. 3:5, 6; Ps. 119:105.

    ***

    Edited by - garybuss on 10 November 2002 16:50:28

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Awake! June 8, 1968 p. 17 - 22

    Heart Transplants Pose Staggering Problems

    IT IS difficult to portray accurately all the moral and legal implications of heart transplants. For example, there is the question of who is qualified- to perform the operation. Thus one press dispatch told that, "fearing a mass rush to the operating table by unqualified surgeons who want to join the heart transplant club, the American College of Cardiology urged today that doctors take a go-slow attitude toward the procedure." 1

    This "College," which consists of America's foremost heart surgeons, announced that it would be setting guidelines as to who is qualified to transplant hearts. Skill no doubt had something to do with the measure of success that Dr. C Barnard had. He not only received much training in the United States in transplanting hearts but also, in South Africa, made fifty transplants on dogs in the past three years. However, let it be noted that fortuitous circumstance also entered into the matter, for example, the fact that Clive Haupt's blood and tissue matched Philip Blaiberg's.

    Then there is also the question: Who is to benefit from the available heart? Will it be the most urgent heart case, or the one of greatest value to the community, or the one with the most dependents, or the one with the most money? On this matter Dr. A. Senning, professor of surgery, University.Hospital, Zurich, and an outstanding heart surgeon, stated: 'Se are afraid of doing a :transplantation. Where would you stop once you started? There are so many people with damaged hearts. To whom would you give the one available heart? To someone who would pay a million dollars?"2

    There is also the human element to consider. On this aspect of the matter the remarks of one of America's leading openheart surgeons, Dr. E. M. DeBakey, are apropos: "The surgeon must scrupulously guard against taking inadvertent advantage, for purely experimental purposes, of the eagerness of a desperately ill patient to consent to almost any procedure suggested. The surgeon must be certain that the proposed transplantation"2 has possibilities of success and for improving the patient's condition and chances for life. This sets up an exceedingly high standard. Who wot21d be charged with the responsibility of seeing to it that doctors meet it?

    Dr. C. Barnard, it is reported, claims that 'the authority to decide legal and ethical implications in cardiac transplants rests the medial profession alone.' But not so! In the Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital case, although three doctors resigned in; protest, it was a lawyer who forced with the result that two highly reputed doctors were found guilty of 'fraud and deceit.' By the very nature of their profession some surgeons are likely to become limited in their view of the issues.

    If this were not so it would be impossible to explain the facts that came to light at the Nuremberg Medical Trials. Among those sentenced to death for their experiments on humansnone of which resulted in any benefit to medicine- was Dr. Karl Gebhardt, a professor of medicine,-head physician of the Hohenlychen Sanitorium and president of the German Red Cross. Though some of these experiments were reported in the medical press, the profession by and large remained silent, even as it greeted with silence the book that catalogued them: Doctors of Infamy (1949), a revised edition appearing in 1962 under the name The Death Doctors. However, the World Health Organization highly praised the authors of these books, Dr. Mitscherlich and F. Mielke, for bringing these facts to the attention of the German medical profession.

    When Does Death Take Place?

    But perhaps the most staggering question or problem facing the heart transplant surgeon is, When does death take place? Yes, just what is death, medically speaking? According to one dictionary, death is "the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant." But it has been averred that there is no legal definition of death. Thus Dr. N. Bricker, a pioneer in kidney transplants, observed: "An acceptable, legal, medical and moral definition of death is needed.''3 Yes, just when does the dying patient the potential donor, become a corpse whose organs can be used? These are among the most disturbing questions that the spate of modern heart transplants has raised.

    Up until now doctors had their greatest tension when trying to decide whether a person should be kept alive artificially or allowed to die peacefully. It was also held that a doctor should do all in his power to restore the heartbeat to the patient, as by artificial respiration by heart massage, or by other methods. All this was well and good, the only question involved being the life of the dying man. But with heart transplants this question has become highly charged with tension, for now the life of one patient is pitted against the life of another! A truly terrible predicament for the doctor to face!

    In fact, this is one of the reasons why Russian doctors have not-yet proceeded with heart transplants. As an American doctor who recently worked with them reported: "When is the patient dead? When should heart or kidney be removed from a patient? These two questions are as unsettling in the U.S.S.R. as they are elsewhere. The Soviet scientists I worked with were reluctant to accept the proposals put forth in other parts of the world for using 'death of brain' as the moment of death rather than 'death of heart.' They are troubled by their experience with the famous physicist Dr. Lev Landau, whom they succeeded in rescuing from 'clinical death.'* A doctor working to save a life until all hope is gone now passes well beyond the point in time at which organs are salvageable for transplantation. He experiences severe tensions when he decides to abandon his efforts. The Soviets believe that these tensions will become nearly unbearable if, as he fights to save a patient's life, he must consider surrendering early enough to salvage a transplantable heart."4 Yes, deciding how long he should try to save a dying man is enough of a burden for the doctor without having the added responsibility of making a choice between two lives!

    The "Dead" Brought to Life Again

    How great the danger is of deciding too soon that a person is dead and proceeding to remove his heart can be seen from the following further examples.

    The New York Times, March 12, 1968, stated that heart surgery restored a marine officer who had been hit in the heart, face and legs and who "died real fast. His heart stopped. So did his breathing." Clinically he was dead, but still he-was brought to life again.

    Thus also a recent London medical report showed that, of 102 patients who were unconscious for more- than a month because of brain injuries, 62 survived. Of these, 19 returned to their former jobs and 29 others returned home to lead useful lives.5 Along the same line, Professor W. Forssmann, German heart specialist, told of an American corporal who, on July 16, 1967, was the victim of a mine explosion. After doctors tried in vain for forty-five minutes to revive him through heart massage and artificial respiration, they sent him to the morgue. A few hours later, as he was to be embalmed, it was noted that he had a weak pulse, although the electrocardiogram showed no heartbeat. After three weeks of deep unconsciousness, this apparently dead man fully regained his mental faculties. 6

    No question about it, heart transplantation poses staggering problems. As one British woman expressed it: "How can I ever be certain that doctors would do everything to save my life if I had a nasty accident, or a terrible disease, that they would not be influenced by what I could contribute to another person?" Apparently some doctors would have all patients entering hospitals sign statements that, in the event of death, surgeons would have the right to take any organs they chose for transplanting them into another patient! 7

    No wonder that some of the more humane, more compassionate specialists are greatly concerned lest a doctor "pull the plugs' on a dying patient in order to get a needed organ. To this end they urge that the transplanting surgeon-not be the one attending the dying potential donor. Thus the British Medical Journal in discussing such problems as "when to resuscitate a patient and when to stop resuscitation once it has been started," stated: "These problems are especially acute when the patient is a potential donor of a-vital organ . .-. There is much to be said for the entire care of the potential donor being in the hands of doctors other than the transplant team until death has been finally diagnosed." 2

    In the same vein Dr. DeBakey said: "The surgeon must be certain, beyond any conceivable doubts, that nothing further can be done to save the donor's life. This judgment should be made independently, by physicians who are not members of the transplant team.... The legal, moral and theological aspects of this problem are formidable."2 Yet is not the likelihood of a dying patient's having a doctor solely concerned with his well-being diminished at a hospital where every member of the staff is infected with the heart transplantation fever, as apparently was the case at the Groote Schuur Hospital? In the first heart-transplant case it was the transplant surgeons who ministered to the dying heart donor. Just what took place appears to be dubious. According- to Science News, Dr. Barnard proceeded to remove; Miss Darvall's heart when the last brain wave was seen on the encephalograph.8 However, according to Time magazine, he waited until the heart stopped beating.9 But when a reporter for Newsweek inquired as to whether Miss Darvall was taken off the resuscitation machine before her heart stopped beating, he was told: 'That is an impertinent question," and so did not get a direct answer.7 But it was a most pertinent question to everyone who may someday become a heart-transplant donor due to the assent of close relatives.

    Dr. Barnard testified: "A doctor has one duty and one duty only, and that is to treat his patient until he has no means left. If we feel a heart transplant is a method for helping a patient, we must do it." But what if that 'feeling' is not based on accurate knowledge? What if helping one patient means taking the life of another? There is much discussion as to the condition of Clive Haupt, whose heart was given to Dr. P. Blaiberg. According to Boris Petrovsky, Soviet health minister, "not everything is clear in the Cape Town experiment. Many things show that a beating heart was removed for the transplant.''10 It might be said that such is implied in that we are told that the doctors "said that when they determined he could not survive, the decision was made to attempt the transplant."

    Have not patients time and again been restored to life after their hearts stopped beating? Dr. Lev Landau's heart stopped four times. And as for using. 'death of brain' to determine death, patients have been restored to life after not having shown any brain activity for two hours!Particularly bothersome is the question: "If a body is all but dead, technically alive only because an artificial respiration maintains heartbeat, is it homicide to take out the heart or kidney before pulling the plug?''ll In one case in England a man who was declared dead after an accident was put on a resuscitation machine just long enough to take out his kidney and then left to die the second time.

    Nor is that all The potential of making heart transplants could be exploited by selfish,~ruthless men to a shocking degree. The possibilities for abuse are so vicious that they might be likened to the unforeseen consequences of the discovery of atomic power. Thus Dr. Forssmann envisions criminals sentenced to death being kept alive until their organs are needed for transplant; then they would be executed by heart-transplant surgeons. Concentration camps would be filled with undesirables who live only until- their hearts or kidneys are needed for transplant operations. He is deeply concerned lest "the doctor would finally be degraded to a hangman, a Lucifer, a fallen angel." According to Dr. Mitscherlich, that is the very use doctors were put to during the Nazi regime. They were employed to get rid of undesirables by injections of various things, such as gasoline or tubercule bacilli; in particular, were physicians on submarines used to get rid of troublemakers in this way.

    The Legal Aspects

    It is interesting to examine the question of the legal aspects of heart transplants. Doctors are concerned that there be new legislation to protect them from possible lawsuits because of performing heart transplants. In some lands it is unlawful to operate on any person except for that person's well-being. This would bar even kidney donors, as the taking of a kidney from a donor is not operating on him for his own benefit, but for that of another person.12

    Then, again, conceivably one relative may have given consent but others may not have, and these might file a claim against the surgeon. In many states of the United States the wife as the closest of kin would have to give permission.l3 Thus because the Ochsner Clinic and Ochsner Foundation Hospital had performed an autopsy on a body contrary to the expressed wishes of the deceased and without permission of the widow, the Louisiana Circuit Court of Appeals awarded the widow $1,500 damages.14

    While doctors are concerned about protecting themselves against such lawsuits, their patients are concerned lest they be murdered. Murder is the deliberate taking of the life of another; the fact that death is imminent is beside the point. The law does not distinguish between five minutes, five hours or five years yet to live. As one surgeon expressed it: "For the person who takes a vital organ too soon, society has a wordand that word is murder."15

    Making a strong case for heart transplants as being murder is attorney H. M. Porter. Writing in the legal newspaper, the Los Angeles Daily Journal, February 2, 1968, he tells of being assured by a leading cardiologist that no surgeon would undertake the operation unless the person whose heart was to be used was still alive at the beginning of the operation. The heart must come from a living donor. The donor must be killed to take the heart; the taking of the heart must kill him.

    Since it is deliberate killing, he argues, it must be termed murder. Murder can be defended on the basis of self-defense but in the case of the heart transplant, not the donor, but the surgeon is the aggressor. Then, again, the defense for the murder might be consent, but the law does not recognize the right of consent in the case of murder, as in suicide pacts.

    The Scriptural Aspect

    Not to be overlooked are the religious, the Scriptural issues involved. There are those, such as the Christian witnesses of Jehovah, who consider all transplants between humans as cannibalism; and is not the utilizing of the flesh of another human for one's own life cannibalistic? Nor are they by any means alone in this view. Thus Newsweek, December 18, 1968, stated: "An artificial heart that could be mass produced would alleviate the shortage of hearts andthe need to cannibalize bodies." And Dr. Donald F. Scott, consultant cardiologist at the London Hospital, condemned heart transplanting as "almost amounting to cannibalism . . . It is not a procedure within our bounds as doctors."'6

    The same point was made in an extensive review of the heart-transplant problems by two of the editors of the Miami News, January 22, 1968. The article, several pages in length, opened with the questions: "Medical-miracle or cannibalism? New hope for man or a step to ultimate destruction? God's will or anathema?"

    Truly by their heart transplants surgeons are posing moral, legal and religious problems of the greatest magnitude. And when one considers how few of all heart sufferers can hope to be helped by heart transplants, it is obvious that heart transplantation is not the solution. What each individual can do about his own heart will be considered in the succeeding article.

    REFERENCES

    1 New York Daily News, February 29, 1968.

    2 Medical World News, February 16, 1968.

    3 St. Louis Post-Dispatch, January 14, 1968

    4 New York Times December 22, 1967.

    5 The Saturday Review, February 3, 1968.

    6 Frankfurter Allgemeine January 3, 19688 ,

    7 Newsweek, December 18, 1967.

    8 Science News, December 16, 1967.

    9 Time December 15, 1967.

    10 Toronto Daily Star, January 19, 1968

    11 Science News, March 2, 1968.

    12 Science News, February 11, 1967.

    13 The Christian Century March 20,

    14 Medical World News, September 1967

    15 Trial December-January, 1968.

    16 The Daily Telegraph. London, January 30, 1968.

    End

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    We accepted that The Watchtower speaks for God, and The Watchtower said organ transplants were considered (by God) the same as cannibalism and detestable to Him. We simply accepted the Watchtower and Awake articles on medical treatments as truth . . . period. We were loyal to God's will as we understood it and trusted it from the pages of The Watchtower. We did not reject an organ transplant because we were afraid of being disfellowshipped. We never even gave being disfellowshipped a serious thought, nor did we check to see what the consequences to us would be if we took a transplant. We were accepting the Watchtower for what it was presented to us as, namely, the word of God.

    At that same time the events relevant to the expectations and predictions concerning the year 1975 were in full force. We also accepted the date of 1975 as being marked in scripture and as being a time when Jehovah's only channel, the Watch Tower Society, obviously expected the conclusion of this system of things. We rejected an organ transplant out of a sincere desire to please God as we understood him and his directions as brought out in the pages of The Watch Tower Society's publications. We feared the imminent Armageddon. We simply accepted what The Watchtower said about medical treatment as being the interpretation of God's word by God himself and that God simply caused his interpretations to be printed in the Watchtower publications by His Faithful And Discreet Slave.

    Delores suffered terribly and died without blood treatment or an organ transplant on January 12, 1971. In 1974 I was called into the Kingdom Hall library for reproof and admonition. My sin? I had not worn a neck tie to the Watchtower Study meeting. It was at that time I realized that if Jesus himself would come into the Kingdom Hall dressed in his robes, as he is presented in pictures on the pages of The Watchtower, He would not have been allowed to even be microphone boy, let alone teach the congregation. I gave the Watch Tower Society every thing I had to give, even encouraging Delores to prove her loyalty to The Watch Tower Society by dying while following their medical advise. But it wasn't enough.

    gb

  • garybuss
    garybuss



    Madman, you wrote:

    My interest is in helping people to escape a cult.

    Are you saying Witnessism is a cult and Christianism is not?

    Are you suggesting that it was unethical for me to post the transcript here?

    Oh, I would never do that.

    "how many of us really came out 100% on our own?"



    I got belly pushed by JW convention cops and counseled for not wearing my costume to a meeting. The unkind, dishonest Witnesses helped me out. I was shocked to find out I had just seen the tip of the iceberg. I'm okay helping someone. I might not be all the way okay watching a theist trying to debate another theist out of one religion and help them right into another . . . . not that that is your agenda. I hope it is not.

    I have had my debates with Witnesses but I much rather debate a Christian A witness knows when they are beat and they retreat.

    gb


    The Way I See it http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Are you saying Witnessism is a cult and Christianism is not?

    Absolutely. Christians are not bound to accept the interpretations of a small group of human leaders, we are not required to be obedient to an organization. We are encouraged to think independently, to examine evidence, to interpret the scriptures as we see fit under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are not required to answer to any man or group of men for our actions and beliefs, only to God.

    The unkind, dishonest Witnesses helped me out. I was shocked to find out I had just seen the tip of the iceberg.

    That's how it started for me, too. The lack of love and cruelty of the elders was the first sign in my mind that things were not as claimed in the organization. But there was a tendency to blame only the individual or the local congregation - "It's just this congregation, the elders here are not good, but the organization overall is wonderful If the Society knew what was going on here they'd clean it up." It took a lot more questioning, and input from outsiders, to realize that the apple was rotten to the core. For me, at least, and I think for many, many others. If I had to guess, I'd say you were probably more the exception than the rule in coming out without outside influence.

    I might not be all the way okay watching a theist trying to debate another theist out of one religion and help them right into another . . . . not that that is your agenda. I hope it is not.

    If I proselytize, it's for Christ, and not for any particular religion. As I said above, I'd be thrilled to see this woman come to Christ. But even if she does not, I think she'd be better off to be out of the JW's. And if she's perfectly happy being in an organization that is a false prophet and that lies to her, she should at least know that that's where she is.

    I have had my debates with Witnesses but I much rather debate a Christian

    This particular Christian is taking two college courses on top of working full time right now, and doesn't have the time to get into an atheism vs. religion debate, since that invariably involves a ton of research. But I'm sure there are some Christians on this forum who would love to take you on.

    In any event, I do appreciate all the looking up and posting of stuff you did for me. Thanks a million!

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Again, Derrick, Gary and everyone else who helped with info - THANKS!

    Here's what I have transmitted to cindeeva:

    Cindeeva;

    Ive been trying to find an explicit statement that Witnesses could be disfellowshipped between 1967 and 1980 if they took an organ transplant. I cant find one, although the 1967 article left no room for doubt that organ transplants were not to be taken by JWs. If you dont see that in the article, then you just arent reading it with an honest mind. I was in the organization during most of those years my understanding was that one would be dfed for taking a transplant just as they would for taking blood. The 1980 article seems to allude to that when it says, " It is a matter for personal decision. The congregation judicial committee would not take any disciplinary action if someone accepted an organ transplant." Why would it be necessary to make such a statement if it had not been the practice in the past for such matters to be handled by the judicial committee?

    Interestingly, the 1967 article was a reversal of the Societys previous stand. The Watchtower of 1961 had said, "The question of placing one's body or parts of one's body at the disposal of men of science or doctors at one's death for purposes of scientific experimentation or replacement in others is frowned upon by certain religious bodies. However, it does not seem that any scriptural principle or law is involved. It is therefore something that each individual must decide for himself." {WT Aug 1 1961 480]. Clearly, the 1967 article did attempt to establish that a scriptural principle or law was involved in transplant operations. Then the 1980 article returned to the position originally taken in 1961. Is this how God gives out information? Does the light get brighter, or is it blinking on and off?

    The statement in 1961 also demonstrates that it was not simply a case of people being protected from transplants when they were still too new to be reliable. After all, transplant operations were even newer and less reliable in 1961 than in 1967. But the Society in 1961 said that there was no objection to anyone taking them.

    What Im trying to illustrate in all this is that what is published in the Watchtower publications is not light from God; it is the opinion of the humans who write the information, and is not always reliable. Yet the organization claims a level of authority and demands from you a level of submission and obedience that belongs only to God. That is why I say that Jehovahs Witnesses are followers of men. Between 1967 and 1980, Witnesses gave their lives for the teaching on organ transplants. Now, that teaching has been abandoned. It was never true, never Gods will it was just the opinion of the men who wrote the Watchtower articles. What about the lives that were lost? Who answers to God for them?

    The Watchtower encourages non-Witnesses to examine their religion. I strongly urge you to look carefully at the group to which you belong. One good site as a starting place is www.freeminds.org. Id also be happy to help in any way I can, and you can email me at [email protected]. If what you believe is the truth, you have nothing to fear from investigating it. If it is not the truth, wouldnt you want to know?

    If I get a response, I'll let you know.

    Edited by - NeonMadman on 11 November 2002 9:42:18

  • Sangdigger
    Sangdigger

    Neonmadman,

    Keep up the good work!!! Talk about Christ every chance you get!!!!!

    Godbless

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