Soul vs spirit. How do JW's explain these scriptur

by betweenworlds 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  betweenworlds

  I know there must be a way that they explain these scriptures. Does anyone know how?

  Genesis 35:18 And the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died) She called his name benoni

  1 Kings 17:21 And he proceeded to stretch himself upon the child three times and call to Jehovah and say" "O Jehovah my God, please cause the soul of this child to come back within him."

  Matthew 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna

  If the soul is the physical body as the witnesses say, how do they explain these scriptures which have quoted from the New World Translation.

  Any help would be appreciated!

  Thanks :)

  betweenworlds
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  NeonMadman

  They would say that the soul represents the life of the individual, so the soul going out of a person would mean that the life has left that person, i.e., he or she has died.

  In the case of the last one you cite ('kill the body but not the soul'), they would understand that to mean that when a person dies, his or her future prospects for life rest solely in Jehovah's hands. Therefore, mere humans may be able to "kill the body", meaning take away the present life, but they have no control over whether Jehovah later resurrects that person.

  Yes, I know they're equivocating on the meaning of the word, "soul", and that the arguments lack logic. But, hey, it fits their preconceived doctrine, right?
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  betweenworlds

  Thanks Neon!

  I was raised as a JW but never thought about the twisted logic until I was out and able to see from the outside in! I'll tell ya, you need a slide rule to figure some of these doctrines out
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  Jim Penton

  I do not think that Witness logic on the question of the nature of the soul is wrong. Words in Hebrew and Greek (like English or practically any language) may have several meanings, depending on the context, and it is unfair to pick a few texts and show one possible meaning only. To get a clear picture of the meanings (plural) of nephesh and psyche in the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible respectively, one would have to do a complete word study in the context of the various passages that contain those words. Incidentally, if one examines a standard work such as the Encyclopedia of Early Christianity on the subject of soul, he or she will see that most modern biblical scholars (not associated with a particular religion which has a dogmatic position on the matter) agree with the Witnesses on this. Of course, the Witnesses did not originate their idea on this or much of anything else. There have been people who believed in what is called "mortalism," the "soul sleep," "conditionalism, "etc. throughout the centuries. There were debates about this in the early church, in the Middle Ages, during the Reformation, and in the 17th century. In the 19th century the idea of mortalism was popularized in the United Statres by George Storrs, a Methodist minister who became an Adventist. Through him and other Adventists, C. T. Russell picked up the idea. So the Witnesses did not develop the idea.By the way, mortalism is held by most Adventists and many others. If one wants to read more on this subject, he or she could do no better than read Froom's The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers which is a historical survey of this doctrine. Froom was a Seventh-day Adventist and may have sometimes been overly zealous in including certain individuals as mortalists or conditionalists, but in general his study is sound.

  Jim Penton
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  betweenworlds

  Mr. Penton,

   Thanks for the information. I shall have to see if I can find a copy of the book to which you

  refer. A friend showed me these scriptures the other day and it surprised me. I had always been 

  taught that the soul as mentioned in the bible always referred to the physical body. Not being a 

  scholar in either Hebrew, Greek or the bible for that matter the scriptures that my friend brought

  to my attention appeared to show the soul behaving as I had always been taught that the spirit did.

  Thanks again for your input

  betweenworlds
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  NeonMadman

  Sheesh...so one of the ex-JW writers that I respect most in the whole world has to jump in and pick on my explanation...

  Hi, Jim! You probably don't remember me, but we had dinner together at BRCI in 2001 in Canada, and I picked your brains extensively about JW history (yeah...that should really distinguish me from the crowd!).

  I wouldn't even begin to presume to pit my knowledge of this subject against yours. To make matters worse, it's not a subject I have studied very much after leaving the JW's, and I don't really feel 100% committed to any position on the matter. However, I will say that, reading the scriptures as they are commonly translated, it appears to me that we can understand the usage of the word "soul" more consistently if we understand it to be an entity that leaves the body at death. The JW interpretation requires that we assign a number of different meanings to the word, over here it means the whole person, over there it means the life of the person, on that one it means the future life prospects of the person, etc. Understanding the soul as an immortal entity allows quite a few of those instances to be reconciled with a single meaning of the word, which seems to be more logical to me. Of course, I am not familiar with the Greek and Hebrew nuances of meaning, either.

  You stated:

  Incidentally, if one examines a standard work such as the Encyclopedia of Early Christianity on the subject of soul, he or she will see that most modern biblical scholars (not associated with a particular religion which has a dogmatic position on the matter) agree with the Witnesses on this.

  Just curious here - how many Biblical scholars are there who are not associated with a particular religion that has a dogmatic position on the matter? Are there really that many scholars who are interested in Biblical doctrine from purely a scholarly viewpoint, even though they have no beliefs on the matter themselves? That sounds like the vague references that the Watchtower used to make to "Bible Scholars" who were being cited to support some JW belief, without ever acknowledging that these "Bible scholars" were in fact members of the hated clergy. I have too much respect for you to assume that you are implying that the mainstream churches are "dogmatic," and the SDA's and Bible Students, for example, are not. So what are you really saying?
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  LucidSky

  Understanding the soul as an immortal entity allows quite a few of those instances to be reconciled with a single meaning of the word, which seems to be more logical to me.

  Except the ones where it says the soul dies...

  A single word could have multiple meanings especially when being translated, right? The word 'spirit' seems to mean wind, ethereal beings, inner courage, etc. They have a common tie to some invisible power. To me, the meanings of soul has ties to a single living and conscious being. It is only a body after death. So in general I would say, spirit + body = soul.

  Jim (if you are the real Jim Penton) - I enjoyed your book. It was one of the first I read as I left the org. If only the Society would adopt it instead of the Proclaimers book.
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  betweenworlds

  Something that has always bothered me about the idea that the bible is the inerrant word of God is that fact that so many of the words that we read in todays bible don't have the same meaning as they did when they were written. If in fact this bible as we see today is God's ONLY means to reaching salvation why would he allow certain meanings to be lost or changed? It seems to me (with my simple-unscholarly brain) that this would be the equivilant of a parent giving his desperately ill child a map on how to get to a hospital for lifesaving treatment and closely watching this child the entire way there. On the way a stranger jumps in, grabs the map from the child and proceeds to change parts of the map and puts it in a language the child cannot understand. The parent is overseeing the whole journey and could at any time jump in and stop this, but he just lets it happen instead. And it doesn't happen once, but several times. by the time the strangers are through the map no longer resembles the original, leaving the child confused and wandering aimlessly. I as a mother cannot imagine doing this to my children. I would take them by the hand and lead them directly from point A to point B and God FORBID anyone get in the way of me getting my children to saftey. Then there are those who would say, well it is only those who really study and search out the deep things of the bible that are deserving to gain life. I remember hearing this more than once as a Jehovah's witness. It always puzzled me because Jesus said that the ones that were like children would enter into the kingdom, not those who are the most intelligent and able to discern secret mysteries. In my opinion if there there was only one message from God, by which man might be saved he would put it in bold, easy to read print, and NEVER allow it's meaning to be changed. I personally don't feel that any book written by man is the pure unadulterated word of God and or Goddess and that there is much to be learned from works written by people of different belief systems and cultures. It's a great big beautiful world out there and it's so sad that so many are afraid to step outside of the box to experience all it has to offer because of an ingrained puritanical belief that if you don't believe the way this one book tells you God is gonna take you out! (And how )

  Just my 2

  betweenworlds
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  A Paduan

  In my opinion if there there was only one message from God, by which man might be saved he would put it in bold, easy to read print, and NEVER allow it's meaning to be changed.

  Love God & your neighbour - they're there - the first people you meet - existence and people - God in people, and you, and people in creation.

  With enough words it can be changed - into meaning whatever people care to apply to it. But for His children, this map isn't taken, it's in their pocket, all the time, and where can they go that He isn't there - a real Adventure has real knocks and bruises - I let my children get hurts - it's a way to teach.

  paduan

  Edited by - a paduan on 13 November 2002 16:31:4
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  A Paduan

  Back to the thread - if this body is it, how do they plan meeting Him in the sky?