Reformed Episcopal View of Christ

by thepreacher 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Also, I have some questions for you TheFirm, and I very sincerely want to know the answers, if you can help me out:

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying to Saints?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying and Worshiping in front of Statues, Icons, Pictures, etc?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Celibacy?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of giving Special Honor and Worship and Prayers to Mary?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary staying a Virgin forever?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Redeemer along with Christ?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Mediator along with Christ?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Catholic Confession?

    I sincerely want to know which Bible Verses support these teachings.

    I send my Christian Love.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Well sorry to disappoint you Firm, but the Reformed faith is the true continuation of the apostolic faith. When Rome anathamatiesed the gosple at the council of Trent in 1564 a document and council you have no clue on. God anathamatiesed the Roman Catholic Church. The true "Catholic Church" resides in those churches that Preach the Gospel, Rightly Adminster The Sacraments, and practice Church Disapline (which your church doesn't I'l just go to a local Papist Center and just observe the rampant bible illiteracy that has plueged Roman Catholics, not to say thier disobedience to thier own Catholic ways such as birth control which many of Your people scoff at.... In fact I know many Papist who live inmoral lives and thier preists and church leaders know that about them and yet do nothing they just say thats the Catholic way, in which I reply oh Your fellow papist live in debochery and inmorral filthy living and the preist says "oh yes they got to sow thier wild oats" NO JOKE who was the last Roman Catholic excommunicated or disfellowshipped for thier whicked conduct??????????? The true Catholic Church whe one Christ has been building the last 2000 years is the bible believing Christ preaching Reformed Protestant Church.

    Yes I have herd of Scot Hahn. Have you heard of his friend Gerry Mattaticts? Gerry became a "traditionalist Roman Catholic conver" They used to be best friends but now Gerry refers to Scott Hahn as a liberaliesed Roman Catholic and a copitulator. I had Dinner with Gerry oh back in Sept 2000 he told me that Scott Hans version of Roman Catholicism is a false ans liberaliesed view of Roman Catholicism and if I wan't the real McCoy I should check out the Pope Pius the X Catholicism. I also sent a copy of my friend apologetic paper against Roman Catholicism He said that this was the best defence of protestantism yet... I can't defent my Popery against such a good Reformed Presupositional presentation. In fact I heard Patrick Madrid can't defend against it......

    Firm you have know clue on what Roman Catholic Doctrine is.

    I sugest you buy Lugwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Documents From the Counsil of Trent, and It's Catachism From Pius the V

    Gregory the 16th encyclicals, Also the catachism against Modernism by Pius the X (my guess you would be guilty of all of them) and other encyclacals by Pius the 9,10,11

    Documents of Vatican 1 which Ibelieve was under Leo the 8th? and the Modernest Vatican 2 and New Catachism, which I would compare all the chainges with the old Baltamore Catichism a Papist Catichism that the Firm has no clue on it's contents

    If you wan't clue on what "catholic answers" is don't go to Pat Madrin or James Aken but read Robert Bellerman.

    Cheers and I hope you go to the book store,

    jr

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    You Tell Us: Does Rome Provide Infallible Certainty About the Gospel?

    The Council of Florence, the 14 th Ecumenical (and hence infallible) Council of the Roman Catholic Church, said the following:

    It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

    Yet, section 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) says:

    The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

    In a similar way the Pope seemed to be in line with section 841 when he said,

    VATICAN CITY, SEP 9, 1998 (VIS) - At today's Wednesday general audience in St. Peter's Square, the Pope spoke on the theme of The Spirit of God and the 'Seeds of Truth' in non-Christian Religions. The 'seeds of truth', said John Paul II, are 'the effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body', the wind 'which blows where it wills'. The Holy Father explained that in all authentic religious experiences, the most characteristic manifestation is prayer. ... Every true prayer is inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person. Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior. The attitude of the Church and of individual Christians with regard to other religions is characterized by sincere respect, deep kindness, and also, where it is possible and appropriate, cordial collaboration. This does not mean forgetting that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator and Savior of the human race. Nor does it imply lessening the missionary effort to which we have an obligation, in obedience to the command of the Risen Lord: 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'. This attitude of respect and dialogue, concluded John Paul II, represents a due recognition of the 'seeds of the Word' and of the 'groans of the Spirit'. It also prepares the proclamation of the Gospel in awaiting the time when the Lord shows his mercy.

    Yet, scarcely two years later, we encounter a Papal encyclical Dominus Iesus, which reads in part,

    4. The Church's constant missionary proclamation is endangered today by relativistic theories which seek to justify religious pluralism, not only de facto but also de iure (or in principle). As a consequence, it is held that certain truths have been superseded; for example, the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the nature of Christian faith as compared with that of belief in other religions, the inspired nature of the books of Sacred Scripture, the personal unity between the Eternal Word and Jesus of Nazareth, the unity of the economy of the Incarnate Word and the Holy Spirit, the unicity and salvific universality of the mystery of Jesus Christ, the universal salvific mediation of the Church, the inseparability while recognizing the distinction of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Christ, and the Church, and the subsistence of the one Church of Christ in the Catholic Church.

    5. As a remedy for this relativistic mentality, which is becoming ever more common, it is necessary above all to reassert the definitive and complete character of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In fact, it must be firmly believed that, in the mystery of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6), the full revelation of divine truth is given: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him (Mt 11:27); No one has ever seen God; God the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him (Jn 1:18); For in Christ the whole fullness of divinity dwells in bodily form (Col 2:9-10).

    For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently, then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute.

    This distinction is not always borne in mind in current theological reflection. Thus, theological faith (the acceptance of the truth revealed by the One and Triune God) is often identified with belief in other religions, which is religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself. This is one of the reasons why the differences between Christianity and the other religions tend to be reduced at times to the point of disappearance.

    Hence, those solutions that propose a salvific action of God beyond the unique mediation of Christ would be contrary to Christian and Catholic faith.

    But, only a few months later, we get this:

    GENERAL AUDIENCE Wednesday 6 December 2000

    Dear Brothers and Sisters,

    The theme of our General Audiences during this Great Jubilee Year has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence, we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the Kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The Kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world, and should be a source of serenity and confidence for our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life will enter Gods Kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his Church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this Kingdom. In the Lords prayer we say: "Thy Kingdom come"; may this be the hope that sustains and inspires our Christian life and work.

    Do you really think Rome clarifies the issues of the gospel, or does she muddle them?

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    The Canons of the Council of Orange

    (529 AD)

    Protastant Theology

    A anti-Tritentine Roman Catholic document

    CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

    so much for the Roman Catholic notion of Free Will

    CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.

    So much for the Roman Catholic silly notion of mariting the marit of Christ.

    but you know what Firm Your probably an Americanized Indaviduallist version of Mordern Roman Catholicism Sort of the McCatholic Church Roman Catholic Have Rome and the Pope your way. I bet If I pressed hard enough you wouldn't even submit to your own Roman Catholic Authority..... So Much for Roman Catholic Sola Ecclesia

    When Cardenal Joseph Ratzinger (who is head of the sacrad office of teaching and doctrine for the Roman Catholic church) Liberalizes catholic doctrine you have to go along with him, and do it cheerfully also.

    Huggs, Kisses and sqishy squeezes,

    jr

    Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 22 November 2002 6:38:21

  • The Firm
    The Firm

    Undisfellowshipped and clash: thanks for taking the time to reply. Sorry I just can't attend to this site as much, nor as often, as I'd like to.

    Undf'ed: Great replies and sincerity in them. Much to reply to: About the circular reasoning, that was an expert deflection on your part. I'm used to seeing that kind of spotlight-shift from my JW friends . As far as the accuracy, let's compare: you're (presumably) bible-based, then point to the bible to justify beliefs. That's a 2-way circuit (which, by electricity's qualifications, isn't really a circuit). Knowledgable Catholics enjoy pointing to the Bible which so clearly points beyond itself to the church which sustains and interprets it (a full, true circuit). And since the Bible was written by the CC, using it to evangelize our non-Cathoic bretheren is like playing a home game. Home field-advantage!

    You said, Was Jesus Christ's "energy" flowing through the Roman Catholic Church when the Church persecuted, tortured, and murdered people for trying to translate their own copies of the Scriptures?

    Yes. If someone tried to break into your home and steal the very computer you were reading this on, would you not be compelled to protect yourself and your valuables? The protestant case has yet to be effectively made as to why it was necessary for vigilantes to extract the Bible from the CC. That's why it's clear that most non-catholics don't know much about Catholicism, because they don't know that a Catholic gets much more of God's Word at Mass than just the Bible (which by itself, the Mass is laden with). Our efforts, then, are to lift non-Catholics up to the full deposit of His sacred Word.

    You said: "After all, all of the Apostle Paul's anscestors were Pharisees for hundreds of years until someone went AWOL recently and started this new Christian Religion."

    Wow! You must then admit that Luther was equivalent to Christ in justifying switching Christian religions, which incidentally, is based on the fruit of the previous one. Since Luther et. al. were fallen-away Catholics, then their sweetest fruit could only be as sweet as the CC's least-rotten fruit. Then you'd have to explain from your basis (bible, right?) why/how Christ's teachings of Sola Scriptura/Fide are not only not mentioned by Christ, and not in the Bible, but somehow disappeared for 1500 years and magically reappeared. Sounds much like C.T. Russell resurrecting the dormant JW church after 1800 years, which the JW's cannot explain from the bible any more than any protestant can. (had to tie in a little JW tidbit since this is a JW forum )

    Quote: So, Christ's Church is ANYWHERE where two or more True Christians gather together in Jesus' Name.

    No, Christ is anywhere where 2 or more are gathered in His name. He did not say his CHURCH was. He is decidedly not where 2+ people are gathered against His name and His established teachings. So is Jesus among and blessing the JW's at Kingdom Hall? Was Jesus among Judas' gang as Judas was plotting to hand Him over? In your opinion, was Jesus there during the Crusades? (GASP!). How about in Mass now--where His precious Body and Blood are there to feed us (Rev 3:20)? If you truly believe your above quote, then you'll have no problem going to Mass on Sunday. After all, He's there like you said.

    Quote: Also, how do you explain what happened when the Roman Catholics were PERSECUTING people who owned their own copy of the Scriptures, and who translated their own translation of the Scriptures?

    How would banks react if you went in and ripped out all their chained pens? Many ambitious people did steal and attempt to translate bibles, and did so outside of ecclesiastical authority and therefore without the Holy Spirit's promised safeguard against error (infallability). Thus, obviously, many erroneous and dangerous errors were made. Those copies had to be destroyed or else the faithful would be poisoned by them, and the perpetraters had to be persecuted for plucking the fruit (Bible) from the tree (CC). Gee, sounds like something Eve did a few years ago...

  • The Firm
    The Firm
    Also, I have some questions for you TheFirm, and I very sincerely want to know the answers, if you can help me out:

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying to Saints?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying and Worshiping in front of Statues, Icons, Pictures, etc?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Celibacy?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of giving Special Honor and Worship and Prayers to Mary?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary staying a Virgin forever?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Redeemer along with Christ?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Mediator along with Christ?

    Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Catholic Confession?

    I sincerely want to know which Bible Verses support these teachings.

    I send my Christian Love.

    I likewise send mine, Undf'ed. Peace be with you!

    Well, some of these do have Biblical corroboration, other's don't. Not all of the above statements are Christ's teachings, thus aren't CC teachings either <g>. Again, I question where you got your information that these all are Catholic doctrine/dogma. It'd be like me asking a JW "Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (even your translation), that supports the Doctrine of only 150,000 people going to heaven?"

    Yet taking nothing away from your sincerity, Undisfellowshipped, I much appreciate your candor and quest for knowledge. But I've gotten this approach by many of my non-Catholic friends many times before, and they've all been traps of some sort. Not saying that that is your intention, but most every time a charge of Marian dogma or celibacy or intercession of the saints is defended and explained, it falls on deaf ears and salivating chops. These have all been explained countless times before, but few will even acknowledge the wisdom of Christ's teachings on it. I could answer all of these above questions, but I don't think it'd do much good, because even the verses I quote would be subject to your own private interpretation whether or not the Church's interpretation fits your own. The #1 issue is obviously authority, for without establishing that, nothing will make sense. I'll be delighted to answer your questions above, but perhaps it's best to tackle authority. Do you agree or disagree?

    I just wonder what you and others lurking must think about us Catholics. Clash certainly has made his/her feelings known, but honestly--how are we viewed? Are we all just lemmings going along with the CC just because we were raised that way? Are we viewed as so blind so as to not see the obvious flaws of "idols" and "cannibalism" and "pedophile priests" and "traditions" and "saint worship" allegedly in the CC? Do protestants think that it must be strong apathy that keeps us from not leaving despite all the charges? Are we all just mental midgets who cling for no apparent reason? Have I been unknowledgeble and uncharitable thus far in defending and explaining the faith of our forefathers thus far? Undf'ed, those are questions I'd like to know the anwers to . So perhaps we can mutually satisfy each other's inquiring minds.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Hi Firm,

    It is sad when you really don't give an account for any of the objections to Rominism on this post, just silly blank assertions with out any scriptual exigeses. But then again you really don't need the bible because the bible alone to you is insufficient. To you the bible is lacking, so much for Psalm 19.

    What is Rome's (not Scott Hahn or Pat Madrid) official position on 2 Tim 3:15-17 and in light of that how can you give an account for the claims of scripture for the power it contains to make a christian grow in Christ. Scripture Alone can train up in rightiousness and is sufficient to equip the christian to live his/her life as a christian.

    1 Tim 3:15-17

    15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    Your statement

    Prespertyrianism has changed its doctrine and split countless times since its inception in the 16th ctry

    No Give me one doctrinal chainge found in the Westminster Confession of faith?

    The only change is when a presbyterian denomination goes liberal and those who are faithfull to the bible have to split and form a bible beliving presbyterian denomination.

    You have absolutly no clue on presbyterian church history. So to make the claim that you just made is to bare false witness and break the 9th commandment. I don't go around mis-representing Roman Catholicism I have many Roman Catholic theology books and have a good grasp of Papist doctrine probably even better than you.. In fact it is your church that has changed yes your church just like the JW has new light. Did you know that John the XXIII and Paul the VI where greatly influenced by theologian Karl Rhaner? Yes Vatican 2 is a radical doctrianal shift of "NEW LIGHT" for the Romenists. From a traditional Romanism of Pius the X, XI, XII to a liberal neo-orthodox even protestant at times Roman Catholicism.

    Firm, who feels guilty because the bible calls him to faith and repentance and to flee the idolotry of Romanism, so Firm uses an individualised version of Papist doctrine to give him psychological comfort and a shallow false sence of security against the THREATS of UNBELIEF and punnishment in HELLthat the bible speeks of, writes this blastophmus dribble:

    because they don't know that a Catholic gets much more of God's Word at Mass than just the Bible (which by itself, the Mass is laden with).

    This kind of sillyness can be written with a world view that views thr BIBLE as insuffiecient in mind. Rember the JW's also view the bible as insuffiecient too. WT plus the bible for the J-Dub.

    Question: In light of your statement is the mass new or added revelation from God if so is it plainary and verbal inspiration? Remember you can not give your own answer you have to give the official Papist position with Impramator and Nehil Obstrat.

    This is what Firm is missing out on this is what the bible cliams for itself no saserdotal mass can ever claim this.... But then agian you hate the authority of the bible since the bible gave birth to the church and not the other way around

    I leave with Ps 19

    Psalm 19For the director of music. A psalm of David.

    1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.
    3 There is no speech or language
    where their voice is not heard. [1]
    4 Their voice [2] goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

    In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
    5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
    like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
    6 It rises at one end of the heavens
    and makes its circuit to the other;
    nothing is hidden from its heat.

    7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
    reviving the soul.
    The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
    making wise the simple.
    8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
    giving joy to the heart.
    The commands of the LORD are radiant,
    giving light to the eyes.
    9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
    enduring forever.
    The ordinances of the LORD are sure
    and altogether righteous.
    10 They are more precious than gold,
    than much pure gold;
    they are sweeter than honey,
    than honey from the comb.
    11 By them is your servant warned;
    in keeping them there is great reward.

    12 Who can discern his errors?
    Forgive my hidden faults.
    13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
    may they not rule over me.
    Then will I be blameless,
    innocent of great transgression.

    14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
    be pleasing in your sight,
    O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.


    Footnotes

    1. 19:3 Or They have no speech, there are no words; / no sound is heard from them
    2. 19:4 Septuagint, Jerome and Syriac; Hebrew line

    I got to go more latter though,

    jr

    Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 26 November 2002 10:2:27

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Here is a study from a good friend of mine BOB MOREY. Hummm why is it that agants from the Kindom of Satan like Roman Catholics, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Muslams try to kill this man He is one of the very few Chritian apologist that I know who has had real live assasionation attemts against him.

    ROMAN CATHOLICISM TODAY

    by Dr. Robert A. Morey

    Introduction

    What was the Reformation all about? What was so terrible with the Roman Catholic Church that the Protestant Reformers went off and started their own churches? Why and what did they protest?

    Today as never before there is a growing feeling among many mainline Protestants that the time has come for Roman Catholics and Protestants to unite into one church. This is the goal of the National Council of Churches (NCC) and the World Council of Churches (WCC). To see this happen, two things must be done.

    First, the history of the Reformation must be rewritten:

    1. To omit any reference to the three million Protestants killed by torture during the Inquisition run by the Jesuits

    2. To omit any reference to the millions who died during the Thirty Years War

    3. To describe the Reformers as crazy and as villains

    4. To remake Romanist villains into heroes or martyrs- the recent rewrite of history to clear "Bloody Mary" of her crimes

    Second, the issues which created the Reformation must be:

    1. Never taught or studied even in seminary

    2. Down played as unimportant

    3. Viewed as resolved because the Church of Rome has supposedly changed

    In reality, the issues are still important enough to make any union with the Church of Rome impossible. Furthermore, the WCC not only wants all Protestant and Catholic Churches to unite into one super-church but all religions into a one world religion! This is a direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy that in the last days when the false prophet and the anti-christ will rule the world, there will be a one-world religion as well as one-world government. It is for this reason that evangelical Christians do not join the NCC or the WCC. In this light, it is important to remember why we are Reformed and not Roman Catholics.

    The Essential Issues Between Catholics And Protestants:

    Issues #1

    The Roman Catholic Church Is Structured According To O. T. Judaism Instead Of N. T. Christianity

    O.T. JUDAISM

    ROMAN CATHOLICISM

    1. The High Priest

    The Pope

    2. Jewish Priests

    Catholic Priests

    3. Continuous Sacrifices

    (Animal)

    Continuous Sacrifices

    (The Mass)

    4. The Temple

    The Cathedral

    5. The Holy City

    (Jerusalem)

    The Holy City

    (Rome)

    6. Physical Discipline

    Even Unto Death

    Physical Discipline

    Even Unto Death

    7. Passive Laity

    Passive Laity

    8. Under Law/Good Works

    Under Law/Good Works

    9. O.T. Worship with Incense, altar, etc.

    Worship with incense, Altars, etc.

    l0. Church/State As One

    Church/State As One

    Why should we continue to follow an old covenant of law/works when Christ has established a New Covenant of grace/faith? The book of Hebrews tells us that the Old Covenant with its priesthood, altars, ceremonies, sacrifices, etc., have all been fulfilled in the work of Christ. Hence they are forever GONE.

    Issue #2

    The Issue of Religious Authority

    The central burning issue which divides the Reformed from the Romanist is the issue of religious authority, i.e. what is the final court of appeal and the ultimate judge of truth, justice and morals? This is where the line is drawn with every cult. In a cult the leadership always views itself as having equal or greater authority than the Bible. On this basis, we must conclude that the Church of Rome is a cult.

    Now we recognize that some people do not view the Church of Rome as a cult because of its size and age. But the size or age of a religion cannot erase the fact of it being a cult if its authority structure is cultic.

    To put it simply, the Church of Rome is the oldest and the biggest "super-cult" of all time. It has killed multiple millions more than the Christian Scientists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishnas, Jim Jones and all the killer cults put together. It has burned more Bibles, destroyed more Protestant churches and murdered more Gospel preachers than the communists! For a thousand years it succeeded in burying the Gospel under a mountain of false doctrines and superstitious ceremonies. If it were not for the brave men and women of the Reformation, we might still be in bondage to the Church of Rome.

    The following diagram contrasts the Romanist and Reformed views of authority.

    Religious Authority

    Romanist

    Reformed

    1. The Church:

    a. the pope

    b. the council of bishops

    c. tradition and practice.

    The Bible is the only and final authority in all matters of faith

    2. The Bible

    The Chief Problem: The Claim of Infallibility

    While the Church of Rome has changed some of the minor details of its ceremonies, its doctrines have not changed since the Council of Trent. Indeed, the Roman Church cannot change its doctrines because it claims to be infallible in doctrine. Thus if it ever admitted that it was at any time wrong on any doctrine, it could no longer claim to be infallible!

    Since Romanists base their faith on the infallibility of the Pope and the Church, no one can doubt or question Catholic dogma. While the Bible is mentioned as being one of the sources for its authority, the Roman Church is actually the only and final authority because it will allow only its interpretation of Scripture. Thus when a doctrine is in conflict with Scripture, the Scripture is conformed to the doctrine!

    The Bible has become a piece of putty which can be molded by the priests into any thing they want it to be. When pressed, modern priests will often attack the infallibility of the Bible in order to defend the infallibility of the Pope and the Church!

    True Religious Authority

    Principle #1 There can be only ONE ultimate final authority.

    The attempt to have two, three or more "final" authorities is impossible. Ultimately one will win out over the others. Just as there can be only one captain of the ship or one head of the home, even so there is only enough room in this universe for One FINAL authority (Matt. 6:24).

    Principle #2 God is this one ultimate final authority. God has authority over all of life because He is the Creator and Sustainer of all things (Matt. 28:18).

    Principle #3 God has revealed His mind and will in Scripture and thus Scripture is the ultimate final authority. The Bible is not to be viewed as a collection of funny religious ideas from thousands of years ago. It is the present revelation of the heart and mind of the Creator toward man, His image bearer. It is the last court of appeal, the final judge, the ultimate arbitrator, the absolute standard of truth, justice, morals and beauty:

    a. Isa. 8:20

    b. Acts 17:2, 10-12

    c. II Tim. 3:16

    d. II Pet. 1:19-21

    Principle #4 Nothing can override the authority of Scripture. Churches, popes, bishops, pastors, priests, human traditions, kings, presidents, congress, civil judges, supreme courts and all human authorities must bow before the eternal Word of the Almighty. Nothing is to be added to or subtracted from the Word of our God.

    a. Deut. 4:2; 12:32

    b. Pro. 30:5-6

    c. John 10:35

    d. Rev. 22:18-19

    Issue #3

    The Holy Scriptures

    The leaders of the Church of Rome such as its priests have always viewed themselves as "the Church" and the congregation as "the laity. This radical distinction has given them much power over the people.

    When the priests say, "Only the Church can interpret the Bible," they are claiming exclusive rights to the Bible. In every cult, the leadership cannot stand the idea of "the laity" interpreting the Bible on their own. If they do, they will find things in the Bible which clearly contradict the doctrines and authority of the leadership. Historically, how did the priests of Rome prevent this?

    First, they kept the Bible away from the people:

    a. They kept the Bible in languages which people could not understand: Latin, Greek or Hebrew.

    b. They outlawed any vernacular translations.

    c. They destroyed any translations by burning them.

    d. They put to death all who dared to translate it.

    e. They made it illegal to have or read a Bible.

    f. They substituted other books in its place:

    ex. prayer books, missals, devotionals, etc.

    Second, they kept the people away from the Bible.

    a. They told them that the Bible was far too difficult for people to read.

    b. They warned them that the Bible was dangerous.

    It could destroy their faith and damn their soul.

    c. They discouraged people from learning how to read.

    d. They spoke out against the printing press. Why?

    1. The Reformation followed the invention of the printing press. The resulting accessibility of Scripture posed a tremendous threat to "the Church. This is why various Popes condemned the printing press as a work of the devil.

    2. Those countries where there was a high rate of literacy became Protestant. Thus "public" education was denounced by "the Church" as evil.

    3. While the Protestant countries became centers of education and industry, Catholic countries were kept ignorant and poor.

    e. They threatened them with death if they did read it.

    But has not "the Church" changed? Does not it now allow people to read the Bible?

    Yes, in Protestant countries such as the U. S., where there is freedom of religion and where Bibles can be purchased in every bookstore, it cannot do otherwise. But they cannot just let people read the Bible per se.

    They have produced their own translations which:

    1. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses mistranslate the original text to safeguard their doctrines.

    (ex. Gen. 3:15)

    2. Place notes in the text which give the "official" interpretation. (ex. Rom. 5:1)

    In "Catholic" countries the story is different. The Bible is still shunned as "dangerous. As documented by the Hefleys in their book, By Their Blood: Christian Martyrs Of The 20th Century, (Mott Media, 1979), wherever the Church of Rome has political power, it stills does all it can to keep the Bible away from the people. The Roman Church has never retracted its official denial of religious freedom and its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines.

    Issue #4

    Salvation

    How can a sinner find acceptance before a Holy God? On what basis can we have any hope of escaping His just wrath?

    Romanist

    Reformed

    God accepts us on the basis of our performance of certain religious duties such as baptism, confirmation confession, attending mass, good works, etc., as well as by grace.

    God accepts us solely on the basis of the performance of Jesus Christ in His sinless life, good works, death and resurrection. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Salvation -Not by Works But By Grace

    The idea that our salvation depends on our participation in certain religious ceremonies and living a life of good works is the basis of all false religions past or present. The ancient Egyptian priests taught their people that their good deeds and their bad deeds would weighed at death and that if the good outweighed the bad, they could go to paradise. This works mentality is the basis of all major religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam. It is the basis of all the cults such as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is the basis of all liberal religion as found in mainline churches such as the United Methodist churches.

    If you search the history of religion from the beginning of time you will discover that the religion of the Bible is the only religion that has ever taught that salvation is by the unmerited free grace of God. It is the only religion that teaches that God became a man in order to die in man's place and to do all that is necessary for man's salvation. It is the only religion which points man away from his own works to the works of Christ.

    It is on this basis that we cannot view the Church of Rome as a Christian Church. It has always made salvation dependent on participation in its religious ceremonies and the doing of good works. It thus has the same view of religion that all pagan religions have.

    What can we say about the issue of works vs grace?

    1. One problem with trying to earn your salvation by good works is that you can never know if you have done enough to tip the scales in your favor. Does one big sin outweigh a hundred small good deeds? What if you are one good deed short? What if you piled up a lot of good deeds all your life but did a big sin just before you died?

    2. The main problem with a works mentality is that it contradicts the plain teaching of Scripture.

    a. John 3:16 f. Rom. 11:6

    b. John 6:28,29 g. Gal. 2:21; 5:4

    c. Rom. 3:9-28 h. Eph. 2:1-10

    d. Rom. 4:1-8, 16 i. Tit. 3:4-7

    e. Rom. 5:1,2, 6-11 etc.

    Issue #5

    The Finished Work Of Christ Versus The Mass.

    A. The O.T. Sacrifices (Leviticus)

    1. Numerous in number and kind.

    2. Continuously offered on altars by priests.

    3. The death of the sacrifice accomplished each time.

    B. The Catholic Sacrifices (The Mass)

    1. Numerous in number and kind.

    2. Continuously offered on altars by priests.

    3. The death of the sacrifice accomplished each time.

    C. The N. T. View of Christ's Death

    1. O. T. sacrifices were numerous and continuous because they did not spiritually or morally cleanse or save anyone (Heb. 10:1-4, 11).

    2. Their purpose was to predict, not to save (Col. 2:17).

    3. The book of Hebrews says that Christ's sacrifice was BETTER than the O. T. sacrifices. Why?

    a. His Sacrifice was SINGULAR, not NUMEROUS (Heb. 10: 12, 14). One sacrifice.

    b. His Sacrifice was FINAL, not CONTINUOUS (Heb. 9:24-28; 10:10, 18). For all of time.

    c. His Death was accomplished ONCE, not REPEATEDLY (Heb. 9:26-28; Rom. 6:9-10). He will never die again.

    Issue #6

    The Priesthood of the Believers

    In Catholic theology, the "priesthood" is composed of the officials of the Church such as the Pope, the bishops, cardinals, priests, etc. The congregation is called the "laity" or laymen and are not viewed as priests.

    Thus a Catholic priest is a mediator between God and His people. The priest is to hear their confession of sin and he is the one who "forgives" (absolves) them of sin and decides what works of penance they must perform. He is the one you must pay to get a suffering loved one out of purgatory. He can even sell you an "indulgence" or "time off" from suffering in purgatory - if the price is right.

    At the Reformation, the Reformers revived the biblical doctrine of the priesthood of the believer. Once the common people understood this doctrine, the power of Rome was broken. The people realized that:

    They were the church

    They were priests

    Christ was the only mediator between God and man

    They should confess their sins to God alone

    Only God can forgive sins

    Purgatory was a myth

    Indulgences were a congame

    Only God decides who goes into Heaven or Hell

    The Catholic priests could no longer rule by fear and intimidation. The people rose up and drove them out of the church!

    This historic doctrine of the Reformation must be clearly emphasized today as one of the chief issues between Romanists and Christians.

    I. Basic Theological Definition

    Under the New Covenant, every Christian is a priest of the most High God (Isa. 6l:l-6; I Pet. 2:5, 9; Rev. l:6; 5:8, 9). All Christians have immediate access to God's presence through Christ and thus have no need for human priests or mediators. There is now only one High Priest who is the mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ our Lord (I Tim. 2:5).

    The High Priest and only Mediator is Jesus Christ (Heb. 2:17; I Tim. 2:5)

    All Believers are priests the and ministers of God (I Pet. 2:5)

    II. The Basic New Testament Principle:

    All the privileges and responsibilities of the Old Testament priests now belong to all believers - except those privileges and responsibilities fulfilled or abrogated by Christ or delegated to the officers of the New Testament Church or explicitly denied them by the New Testament itself.

    III. The Old Testament Priesthood

    A. THE PRIVILEGES OF BEING A PRIEST

    1. Immediate access to God (II Chron. 26:l6-2l)

    2. Enjoying the dignity of the office (II Chron. 26:l6-2l)

    3. Exercising the authority of the office (Lev. 13:1-8)

    B. THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF BEING A PRIEST

    1. Offering up sacrifices (Lev. 1-7)

    2. Worshipping God (Heb. 9:6)

    3. Interceding on behalf of others (Lev. l6:l7)

    4. Church discipline (Neh. 8:l3-l8)

    5. The ministry of the Word (Neh. 8:l-8)

    6. Seeing to it that the ceremonies were properly observed (Neh. 8:l3-l8)

    IV. The Priesthood of the Believer in the New Testament

    A. OUR PRIVILEGES AS PRIESTS

    1. Immediate access to God's presence (Matt. 27:5l; Heb. l0:l9-22)

    2. Enjoying the dignity of our office (I Pet. 2:5, 9)

    3. Exercising our authority over:

    a. Sin (Matt. l6:l9 cf. John 20:23; Acts 8:20- 23)

    b. Satan (Lk. l0:l7; Rom. l6: 20; Acts l6:l8)

    B. OUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS PRIESTS

    1. Offering up sacrifices to God:

    "Spiritual" not animal sacrifices (I Pet. 2:5)

    a. The sacrifice of obedience (Psa. 4:5)

    b. The sacrifice of thanksgiving (Psa. 50:l4, 23)

    c. The sacrifice of a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart (Psa. 5l:l6-l7)

    d. The sacrifice of our body and mind (Rom. 12:1-2)

    e. The sacrifice of the people we win to Christ (Rom. l5:l6)

    f. The sacrifice of our gifts to support the Gospel Ministry (Phil. 4:l8)

    g. The sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving (Heb. l3:l5)

    h. The sacrifice of good works such as sharing with others in need (Heb. l3:l6)

    2. Worshipping God (Jn. 4:23, 24; Phil. 3:3)

    3. Interceding for others (I Tim. 2:l; James 5:l6)

    4. Church discipline (Matt. l8:l5-l7; I Cor. 5:4, 7, ll; II Thess. 3:l4; Rom. l5:l4)

    5. The ministry of the Word:

    a. To the Unsaved: Matt. 28:l9, 20; Acts 8:4

    b. To the Saved: Col. 3:l6; Rom. l4:l9

    6. Participation in the New Testament sacraments

    a. Baptism: Receiving: Acts 2:4l

    Giving: Acts 8:l2; 36-38

    b. Lord's Supper: Receiving: Acts 2:46; 20:7

    Giving: Acts 2:46; 20:7

    C. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF OUR PRIESTHOOD

    It overthrows the Romish doctrines of prayers to the "Saints" (and Mary) and the priest being our mediator before God. It establishes once and for all time the believer's right to read and interpret the Bible and to pray directly to God through Christ as the only mediator between God and man. (Note: see the article on the Priesthood of the Believer for a fuller treatment.)

    Conclusion

    The Reformation was not a mistake. It was not based on insignificant issues. The truths for which our Protestant fathers lived and died are just as important today as when they were first preached.

    While we love Roman Catholics and do not hold any personal animosity toward them, we must still say that their religion is not true according to the Bible. The only way for them or us or anyone to be saved is to trust in the person and work of Jesus as providing all that is necessary for our salvation. All other ground is sinking ground.

  • The Firm
    The Firm

    Hello and peace be with you clash. You certainly spare no effort in trying to lead someone to Christ, and I consider myself priveledged to be the object of your efforts. I suppose that's what we're all trying to do here on this forum, right?

    Is there any way to condense matters a little? I know I get going on my posts too, but man... Anyway I'm used to getting barraged by a hundred+ accusations. That's an all-too common tactic: to fire away with questions, and then not give sufficient opportunity to answer them. It was wearisome trying to answer Undf'ed's post; there's no way I can take 4 hours to answer yours, I'm sorry. I can attempt them one at a time, that is, if the quest for knowledge is sincere, or if you'll accept my charity in answering them.

    I will answer your first question, though. 2Tim3:15-17, the "all scripture is inspired" verse, talks about the Old Testament, which you and I would agree is not "sufficient". Verse 15 qualifies the scriptures as having been learned from the peep's infancy. Since the letter to Timothy (who was the Catholic Bishop of Ephesus, by the way ) was written around 67AD, Paul certainly couldn't be referring to the New Testament because he was in the process of writing some of it. Clash, even if he was including the NT in this verse, then he was excluding books not written yet, such as Gospel of John and Revelation. Also, the key word is "beneficial", not "sufficient". Water is beneficial to our lives, but certainly not sufficient.

    No one argues that the Bible is inspired and certainly beneficial. But nowhere in the NT (or OT) will you or anyone find exclusivity of Scripture. It's not in 2 Tim 3:15, and making that verse say something it doesn't simply does violence to the text.

    Thanks for the spiritual hospitality and I look forward to your reply.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Firm,

    You keep saying that all the Writers of the Bible and all the first-century Christians were Catholics.

    Please explain how you know this, and where is the proof of this?

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