I'm a newbie too

by Flowerpetal 54 Replies latest jw friends

Prisca

Flowerpetal said :
In the meantime, I give Goodwill Industries and have given furniture to the Salvation Army.
I wouldn't mind even doing volunteer work for an organization that visits hospitals as long as they are secular in nature. It's what I would let *myself* do. I would not join any *religious organization* that does volunteer work,
I don't know about Goodwill, but the Society classes the Salvation Army as being part of Babylon the Great. The Society once disapproved of giving to religious charities. Flowerpetal says she won't join these religious charities, yet she clearly does not see that giving to religious charities is supporting them!
At the end of the course, they have a decision to make and that is do they want to dedicate their life to Jehovah and symbolize it by water baptism. And they need to know that this baptism will identify them as one of JWs.
Is that what Jesus said would happen when he told his followers to be baptised in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? [Matt 28:19]
Hmm... I don't see a 20th century organisation mentioned here.
Can she give a talk at the hall just like a man? (of course with a householder but the information she brings out still benefits the congregation).
ROTFLOL! Flowerpetal really shouldn't have mentioned this one, as she just lost her argument!
Women are not allowed to give talks like the men do, period. The way they explain away women giving talks with a householder is that these talks are given as suggestions as how to present the info - so that the males can choose to accept those "suggestions" or not. (this is what my elder-father once told me)
One thing a lot of Witnesses that come to this board do, is forget that we who left have years of experience in the "truth" behind us. We are not idiots that have become foaming-at-the-mouth, satan-worshipping, drug-induced, sex maniacs that hate the Bible and anyone and everyone that calls themself a Jehovah's Witness.
We DO know what went on. We DO know how things operate in the Org. We still have family and friends in the Org. And we are normal people, really!!
larc

I would say that giving to Goodwill takes about one hour a year. Pack up stuff in your trunk, drop it off at their store when you are going to be nearby, get a receipt and deduct it from your income tax. One hour and a tax deduction worth much more than an hour of your time is not much of a personal sacrifice, if any. So far, this all that Flowerpetal has done, although she has "thought about" doing other things.
Prisca,
I was just discussing with my wife the point you made in your last post. JWs really shouldn't come here and try elaborate verbal diversions with us. We know the difference between reality of the Witness world and what is said to the outside world.
Flowerpetal

Well larc,
I contribute more than that. More that 1 hour to pack things up too.
I make regular trips at least once a month to Goodwill Industries.
Flowerpetal

Thanks Dood for the welcome. You stated:
I must agree with Tina on the point that field service is mandatory. Here is my illustration. Say you have a job that you love doing. It really doesn't matter whether you love it or not, you still HAVE to do it in order to get a paycheck. Kinda the same thing. You may LOVE going out in field service, but you still HAVE to do it to remain in good standing. If you suddenly stopped, you would probably receive a shepherding call, which usually is a checkup on the spiritually weak.
FP>>Well Dood, I am not going in field service to receive everlasting life, because let's be honest and say this is the end result of that illustration. Now the issue of me suddenly stopping preaching, would be a matter of a crisis of my faith. The real issue is reporting time. As I stated before, I can't not talk about spiritual matters. And it doesn't have to be in a field-service setting. It can be in informal witnessing. On occasion, I have had born-again Christians "witness" to me, on occasion. So I have no problem reporting time witnessing. And I don't do it so I can be considered a "good" publisher. One thing I don't like is being categorized as a legalistic, organizational witness, because I am not that kind.
Dood>>I had something else to say that was really good.....hold on...let me think....
Oh yes. I remember now. I really have no qualms with the Jehovah's Witnesses going out in field service except for one simple fact that doesn't follow the Bible at all. When Jesus went door to door, what did he teach about? His father? The answer is yes. When you go door to door, what do you preach about? The watchtower. You may argue that the watchtower is God's word, but it is simply an interpretation of God's word.
FP>>Well for me and my congregation, I can say that we don't preach the watchtower. We try to engage the person in a conversation, and direct it toward the Bible. I agree that JWs have an interpretation of the Bible--but don't other religions claiming to be Christian as well??? And they teach doctrines that I don't agree with nor do I beleive they are scriptural.
Dood>> If accuracy and sticking to the Bible was the REAL concern, then why wouldn't you just study the bible, no watchtower needed? You aren't totally incomptetant, and you don't need a magazine's help to reach the truth using the Bible. You can find it on your own.
FP>>The return visit I have now, if she wants to have a Bible study, will be one of those kinds of people where we will just use the Bible. She has been reading the magazines for years and says she gets comfort from them, however.
Dood>>I remember, i got baptized at the age of 10. How did i know the bible so well at 10? i didn't. i never even read the bible. You don't need to know the bible to be a jehovah's witness. You need to know how the JW's interpret the bible. I mean, You get to keep the green book OPEN during the entire thing, with the answers listed under the questions. LOL. How much bible study is really needed?
FP>>And I got baptized at the age of 11. And Dood, it's not a matter of how well you know the Bible to get baptized, but are you dedicated to do Jehovah's will? That should have been the question that needed answering. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have gotten baptized at 11. Personally, I think no child should get baptized until they are done with puberty. However, my mother gave me a good example. She was a spiritually minded person before becoming a witness. She was what you would call a "good" Catholic but many of their doctrines worried her and the priest couldn't answer her questions, so she looked elsewhere and her father-in-law, who was a witness by that time, showed her answers from the bible...and that was that.
Another thing I would like to say is that if the org were to be dissolved tomorrow by governmental means, or other means, some witnesses will just fall apart. But for those whose relationship is with Jehovah FIRST, they will be still depending upon him. I am in the second category.
Flowerpetal

Dear Tina, you wrote:
fp,
You're the one splitting hairs and ignoring my question,,,,,
FP>>Eh????????? I believe it was larc who mentioned that I thought HE was splitting hairs--well no matter.
Tina>>I was a witness most of my life-pioneered,
FP>>Well bully for you. I have been a witness most of my life too and was a regular pioneer for a while and have auxilliary pioneered on many occasions.
Tina>>dont tell me that not reporting fs is ok,and it sure does affect your standing,privileges,whether one is considered spiritually,weak.....and yes it is mandatory if you want to have a good reputation etc.
FP>>OK, let's look at this way. If one loves God and wants to talk about him, what's it to them if they report their time preaching? Nothing. It could just be an hour a month if that is what they can do, due to their circumstances. If on the other hand, people are forced to get baptized, and told they must go in service and to worry about what other people (the congregation) thinks about you, well I can see the pressure of feeling like it's mandatory. And it appears that there are a lot of legalistic witnesses out there who impose this feeling and attitude to the flock. That's really too bad. If I were in a congregation like that, I would justifiably so, feel the same way you do.
My congregation is not like that. Here's a good example: Last year or the year before last, (can't remember exactly) the society set up a program called Pioneers Assist Others. Already I had been going out in service mid-week with the reg. pioneers (we had 8 at one time in our cong). The elders were asking different publishers if they wanted to participate in this program. Some said yes; I said no. And that was the end of it. No asking me "Why" or no putting pressure on me. No pioneer coming up to me and "encouraging" me to participate, etc. No questions--nada.
Tina>>Join not in the sense that you think,for many join simply means having ones name on a list for scheduling the voulunteer time,nothing more. You obviously know nothing about real volunteer work,,,now Iasked you What organizations are approved by the wts?
FP>>First of all I didn't "join" this forum to be inquisitioned.
Second, I don't see joining as having your name put on a list for scheduling volunteer time. Third, if I were to do volunteer work, I would get educated about it as to what it's all about, before doing it. And I do have a booklet printed by the county I live in which lists volunteer orgs. Fourth, I already stated I don't have a list of orgs that might be approved by the society--and frankly I don't care if they have a list or not as it is *MY* individual decision; and *my* conscience which will be my guide as to what volunteer place I would work in.
Tina>>larc defined it quite well as a requirement,Now the WTS approved List please?
FP>>See above. I will just add that your experience as a witness is not my experience and vice versa.
Tina>>Thanks for your help larc, seems she's just avoiding an honest answer to me...
FP??I have given you the answers twice now. I suggest you carefully read each line.
Tina>>and btw,yes you do recruit,you;re goal at the door is a rv(whih you said you do) leading to a bible study.which leads to joining the org-yes dear You recruit,,,,You're not talking to people here who dont know the deal,,,T
FP>>My goal is to study the Bible with interested people. If after coming to a knowledge of what God wants, they can decide to become a witness or not. It is THEIR decision--not mine. And I won't pressure them.
And stop lumping me in with these legalistic, organizational type witnesses which you must have had a lot of experience with. I am not of that ilk, thank you very much. >:(
Flowerpetal

Prisca>>
Flowerpetal said :
In the meantime, I give Goodwill Industries and have given furniture to the Salvation Army.
I wouldn't mind even doing volunteer work for an organization that visits hospitals as long as they are secular in nature. It's what I would let *myself* do. I would not join any *religious organization* that does volunteer work,
Prisca>>I don't know about Goodwill, but the Society classes the Salvation Army as being part of Babylon the Great.
FP>>Well apparently not any more! I haven't seen anything lately in print nor anyone speak of not contributing to it. Besides that, it was one of two orgs that would pick up. And since I had furniture, I sure wasn't going to haul it somewhere else. And thirdly, Jehovah knows my heart.
Prisca>>The Society once disapproved of giving to religious charities. Flowerpetal says she won't join these religious charities, yet she clearly does not see that giving to religious charities is supporting them!
FP>>See above.
FP>>Prisca quotes me saying>>At the end of the course, they have a decision to make and that is do they want to dedicate their life to Jehovah and symbolize it by water baptism. And they need to know that this baptism will identify them as one of JWs.
Prisca>>Is that what Jesus said would happen when he told his followers to be baptised in the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? [Matt 28:19]
Hmm... I don't see a 20th century organisation mentioned here.
FP>>I don't either.
FP>>Prisca again quotes me>>Can she give a talk at the hall just like a man? (of course with a householder but the information she brings out still benefits the congregation).
Prisca>>ROTFLOL! Flowerpetal really shouldn't have mentioned this one, as she just lost her argument!
Women are not allowed to give talks like the men do, period. The way they explain away women giving talks with a householder is that these talks are given as suggestions as how to present the info - so that the males can choose to accept those "suggestions" or not. (this is what my elder-father once told me)
FP>>Perhaps that was his opinion? The wife of the school overseer in my cong., when I was her householder a while back and we got together to practice, was concerned about how she was presenting the information in her talk because she felt that she was teaching and she wanted the cong to get the gist of what she was saying in her talk. Now where do you suppose she got that idea from?
Prisca>>One thing a lot of Witnesses that come to this board do, is forget that we who left have years of experience in the "truth" behind us. We are not idiots that have become foaming-at-the-mouth, satan-worshipping, drug-induced, sex maniacs that hate the Bible and anyone and everyone that calls themself a Jehovah's Witness.
FP>>Have I ever alluded to you or others, that I feel that way?
Yet I get the feeling that I am being put to the 3rd degree here, for only stating what has been *my* experience. Each experience is different. Sure, I have visted congs where I can see attitudes like you express. I remember an elder (before they were called that)who would just call on people at the WT study who hadn't had their hand raised and expect them to make a comment. (mean attitude, too) His reason? Every witness should have studied the lesson and be prepared to answer every question.
Prisca>>We DO know what went on. We DO know how things operate in the Org. We still have family and friends in the Org. And we are normal people, really!!
FP>>And I realize that you, from your experience, and reading experiences of others, know. I know that all you want is to be acknowledged and that these experiences have happened to you or people you know. You want to be validated. OK So I validate you. You are a normal person, I understand that.
But can't you see or understand, that some of us haven't had those experiences...at least as of yet? All mine, on the whole, have been pleasant. Sure there were times when looking back now, I have seen the beginnings of attitudes that appear to be more prevalent now, and perhaps I would have now been butting heads, or more, with some elders, or cong members, but I live in another part of the country now--and those guys are very, very old! LOL
I feel that my cong. is really living up to the standards that the bible sets out. And as far as I can tell, there aren't any gossips in my cong. The elders' wives mind their own business and for now, at least, things are running smoothly.
Please don't ask me to create something that I don't see.
Tina

fp,
There is no equality in teaching at any kh, where are the sisters giving the sunday discourses? Or how about talks at the assemblies?
Or sisters giving the bible readings? What you describe is a little 'lip service' nothing more... you can't be in a position of teaching responsibility, and anything a woman "teaches' can be amended,vetoed, disregarded by the men,,,as merely suggestions,,,,,nope,you're hoodwinked into thinking that a woman has any full share. The dumbest 15 yr old brother can 'take the lead' and have responsibility,over a sister with a PhD..and if you think that's just fine and fair,I feel sorry for you. What Prisca said is true,and I heard it before myself. What planet is your cong on?
terraly

FP: "What is your definition of a Christian?"
A follower of Jesus Christ.
Now, I realize that is a bit too much of an "escape by simplification", but I think it's hard to define it more than that. The primary reason it is difficult to follow Christ's teachings while a Witness is that unless you're of the annointed, you don't believe that a lot of what he says applies to you, so I think you miss a lot of important aspects of his teaching.
FP: "Can your friend go from door-to-door just like a man? Can she go on return visits just like a man? Can she conduct bible studies just like a man? Can she give a talk at the hall just like a man? (of coursewith a householder but the information she brings out still benefits the congregation). She can be a auxilliary pioneer or regular pioneer just like a man. Being a parking lot attendant e.g. is not a gauge for the kind of spirituality Jehovah looks at, for crying out loud!
And to tell you the truth, I would not want to be an elder. I don't want to know people's business that bad because it would change my attitude toward them. And I have a story about that!
And giving prayers in front of men would make me uncomfortable. Now maybe this is a strong attitude coming from the apostle Paul, but if you accept what the Bible says, God made man first. He is to be the head of the family at least."
I respect your choice not to want to lead prayers or be an elder, but there are women who do, and they cannot. You're obviously reaching for positions where women can have some importance (see Tina's reply to your statement that women can actually give "talks").
Nor do I see how the fact that Adam was made first guarentees him a special place. Animals were made before man- are they most important to God. The Bible tells us that God made humans last, and made them special and gave them dominion over the animals- and he made women last of all and the most special, and gave them dominion over man :)
It is only Paul who makes the slightly dubious logical connection: Adam was made before Eve- and so men are more important then women. Eve got Adam to sin, and so women are too spiritually weak to be leaders.
We both agree that Paul is wrong sometimes, perhaps you should re-examine this teaching and see if you really agree with his logic, especially in light of his other statements about how there is "neither male nor female", and Jesus' attitudes towards women.
FP: "Are you a liberal Christian, T?"
Well, I dislike categorizations like "liberal/conservative" just on basic philosophical grounds, but I am a Christian, yes, and my views would generally have me placed as a liberal one. Many would consider you a liberal Christian too you know- choosing Jesus over Paul, tsk tsk.
FP: "IMHO, we still might have a long way to go. I mean there isn't even a woman president yet and I think it might be a long time in coming. Men are uncomfortable with women's cycles, etc. and it terrifies the majority of them that a woman might be making major decisions of the country based on that! LOL"
Don't you think, deep down, this was what worried Paul too :)
t.
larc

FP,
I think you are a good person and you would honor and praise God and try to bring others to him whether you were required to or not. Nonetheless, it is a requirement of your religion; it is not an option. I am glad that you go to a congregation of good hearted people, however, there are many horror stories of congretations that simply don't work that way. I am also glad that you want to help others in a charitable way. However, this is not common among the Witnesses. I think you know that everything I say is true, and it probably saddens you.
tergiversator

First of all, welcome to the board, FlowerPetal. :)
FP>>Have I ever alluded to you or others, that I feel that way? Yet I get the feeling that I am being put to the 3rd degree here, for only stating what has been *my* experience.
Forgive me for intruding into this most interesting discussion... but I think we need to be careful that we don't jump on FlowerPetal all at once. She seems to be trying to be a good person, a good Christian, and a good JW, and that isn't easy, folks. A lot of the points that Tina, larc, Prisca, etc, have brought up are certainly valid, but sometimes I think that they are not being asked to FlowerPetal in particular, but to all the other witnesses we knew who we really wanted to question about the role of women, the voluntary nature of field service, etc. but who don't want to talk about them with us.
C'mon, we're supposed to be nice here, right? When someone complains about "being put to the 3rd degree", I think it's a sign that we need to ease up on them. FlowerPetal didn't cause all the ills of the society, and I think it's commendable that she's here actually talking with us, even if there's still a lot we don't quite agree on.
Tergiversator
(of the I Might Have Been Like FlowerPetal If I'd Found This Board Earlier class)

I'm a newbie too

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