Christ's return is NOT invisible!

by fjtoth 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  fjtoth

  One of the principal teachings of JWs is that Christ's return was INVISIBLE in 1914. This, in my mind, is one of the strongest proofs that they ignore the Bible and instead devote their lives to the false teachings of a man-made organization.

  • Mt 24:30 - "And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
  • Mt 26:64 - "Yet I say to you men, From henceforth you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven."
  • Mr 8:38 - "The Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
  • Mr 13:26 - "And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory."
  • Mr 14:62 - "You persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven."
  • Lu 21:27 - "And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
  • Ac 1:9-11 - "He was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.'"
  • 1 Co 1:7 - "Do not fall short in any gift at all, while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation [visible appearing] of our Lord Jesus Christ."
  • 1 Co 15:52 - "The trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we [the living Christians] shall be changed."
  • 1 Th 4:16 - "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."
  • 2 Th 1:6-8 - "It is righteous on God's part to repay ... relief along with us at the revelation [visible revealing, manifestation, appearing] of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus."
  • 2 Th 2:8 - "The Lord Jesus will do away with [the lawless one] by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation [visible revealing] of his presence [coming]."
  • 1 Ti 6:14 - "Observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestaion [visible appearing] of our Lord Jesus Christ. This manifestation [visible appearing] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times."
  • 2 Ti 4:1 - "The Lord Jesus Christ ... shall judge the quick and the dead at his [visible]appearing and his kingdom." (NASB)
  • 2 Ti 4:8 - From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation [visible appearing]."
  • 1 Pe 1:6, 7 - "You have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation [visible appearing] of Jesus Christ."
  • 1 Pe 1:13 - "Set your hope upon the undeserved kindness that is to be brought to you at the revelation [visible appearing] of Jesus Christ."
  • 1 Pe 4:13 - "Go on rejoicing ... that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation [visible appearing] of his [Christ's] glory."
  • Rev 1:7 - "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him."
  • Rev 6:15-17 - "And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: 'Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?'"

  JWs cast aside all the above scriptural testimony and usually attempt to nullify it with a sentence or two quoted or paraphrased from WT publications.

  Frank
• 

  gumby

  "and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation"

  Why would tribes that have never heard of Jesus or know VERT LITTLE about him...."beat themselves" when he arrives"? Should they have KNOWN BETTER? How could they KNOW BETTER if no one ever told them? Would it be just for Jesus to kill them if they never knew about him?

  Another shinning example of the Bible's God of mercy and justice.

  Or......are you going to say they will all HAVE A CHANCE before he arrives?

  Neither the Witnesses or other Christian groups can give a logical explanation to this can they?
• 

  metatron

  What always bothered me as an elder and a Witness is the utter lack of rigourous
  explanation of all the texts about Christ's return.

  It seems as if they published "The Purpose and Manner of our Lord's Return" a hundred
  years ago and have simply given up since.

  The problem is : how can you have a "manifestation" or "Revelation" ( Greek - "unveiling)
  without a visible presence? If something is hidden or covered over, then the unveiling
  consists of making it plainly visible - otherwise, it isn't a "manifestation".

  I think early Christians had no trouble thinking that he would be seen again, in some
  dramatic manner.

  metatron
• 

  blondie

  In the public talk at the most recent circuit assembly, the speaker said that literal celestial phenomena would be seen by all on earth so that they would know that this was from God and not a natural disaster. He did amend that to say it would not be a meteorite hitting the earth.

  Blondie (who wonders what Bible that is from)
• 

  fjtoth

  Metatron: That's how I see it too.

  ---

  Gumby,

  You wrote: "Neither the Witnesses or other Christian groups can give a logical explanation to this can they?" What is illogical about the following explanation from the Bible itself?

  • Mt 24:14 - "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
  • Mt 28:19, 20 - "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, ... teaching them to observe all the thigs I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."
  • Mr 13:10 - "Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first."
  • Ro 10:18 - "They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, 'into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth their utterances.'"
  • Rev 14:6 - "He had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to thos who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice: 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived."
  • Rev 16:14; 19:19 - "They go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty." "The kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army."

  Just because all nations, tribes and people might not yet have heard the Christian gospel, it doesn't mean they never will.

  Frank
• 

  fjtoth

  Blondie,

  Thanks for mentioning that. It's what I used to say in my public talks too. What I failed to notice back then is that it is Christ, not merely catastrophic physical phenomena, that everyone will see.

  When I started to accept what the Bible actually says, I wondered how every person would see Christ at the same time. But the Bible doesn't actually say that. On any given day, the sun shines upon all areas of the earth, though not in the same instant of time. The same could happen with regard to Christ's appearance--on any given day.

  There is another way to look at it too: God is far more powerful than the Devil. If the Devil could show Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory"--"in an instant of time"--surely God can find a way to let every eye see Christ in the same instant of time.

  Frank
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  mouthy

  Hey where were you lot when they kicked me out cos I didn't see Jesus come invisably in 1914---?

  NOW YOU TELL ME!!! SHEEZ!!!!
• 

  gumby

  Just because all nations, tribes and people might not yet have heard the Christian gospel, it doesn't mean they never will.

  Frank

  Thanks for your work on this frank. This would put Jesus return in the Faaaaaar distant future wouldn't it, as there are billions that have not heard or know very little.
• 

  fjtoth

  Gumby,

  Thanks. As I see it, it confirms only that we can't really know when Christ will return. With the advancement of modern means of communication the potential exists for informing people of all nations quite quickly and thoroughly. But much depends upon the initiative of persons who know the gospel. But who really knows it? With all the distortions of it among "Christians," especially groups like JWs, it appears that billions of people living even in so-called Christian nations don't know the gospel as Jesus preached it.

  Frank
• 

  outnfree

  Frank --

  Not to worry! The JW's are inching towards the correct understanding! Why, just before I left in March of 2001, I grilled my PO and another elder on the correct understanding of the Society's "present truth" on "Christ's Presence" vs. "Jehovah's Day."

  In the 2/1/01 WT, page 17-18, paragraph 14, reference is made to both of these things (Italics throughout are theirs; yellow highlighting is mine for emphasis, my comments are in red):

  The apostle Peter too demonstrated a sense of urgency. In his second letter, he warned that in the last days, there would be ridiculers -- apostates and doubters -- who, according to their own wishes, would raise questions about Christ's presence. However, Peter said: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance. Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief." Yes, Jehovah's day is certain to come. Therefore, we should make it our daily concern as to how certain and solid our faith in God's promise really is.--2Peter 3:3, 4, 9, 10.

  This article reminded me of another, studied in 1998, to wit, the second study article in the 9/15 Watchtower (Page 16-17, Paragraphs 2-8):

  Watchfulness During Christ's Presence True, a prophecy put Christians in a state of expectation before Christ was invested with Kingdom power in 1914. But the "sign" that Christ gave of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things featured events. And most of these would be seen after his presence had begun. Such events--wars, food shortages, earthquakes, pestilences, increased lawlessness, persecution of Christians, and the worldwide preaching of the good news of the Kingdom--serve as major proof that we are now living during Christ's presence in kingly power. (Does not "Christendom" teach that Christ is seated at the right hand of his Father--albeit since his resurrection--as authority over heaven and earth?) -- Matthew 24:3-14; Luke 21:10, 11.

  Yet the whole tenor of Jesus' parting counsel to his disciples was: "Keep looking, keep awake, . . . keep on the watch." (Mark 13:33, 37; Luke 21:36) A careful reading of the context of these exhortations to watchfulness shows that Christ was not primarily speaking of keeping a close watch for the sign of the beginning of his presence (gee, but that's what CT Russell watched closely for, among other JW authorities!). Instead, he was ordering his true disciples to keep watchful during his presence. For what were true Christians to remain on the watch? (Notice the innuendo that only JWs could possibly be "true" Christians.)

  Jesus gave his great prophecy in answer to the question: "When will these things be [events leading up to the destruction of the Jewish system of things], and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" (Matthew 24:3) The foretold sign would serve to identify not only Christ's presence, but also events leading up to the end of the present wicked system of things.

  Jesus showed that during his "presence" (Greek, pa.rou.si.a) he would come with power and glory. (Look how they reassuringly insert the old "parousia"="presence" dogma here, before they drop the bomb they hope the R&F won't notice.) Concerning such "coming" (denoted by the Greek word er.kho.mai), he declared: "Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. . . . Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he [Christ] is near at the doors. . . . Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. . . . Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming."--Matthew 24:30, 32, 33, 42, 44. (For years, "Christendom" has been teaching that Jesus' "coming" is yet future and that when he comes, "He will judge the living and the dead," while the Witnesses have insisted that Christ was already "present," that the time left was "short", and that the rank and file were participating in "a great separating work" with their kingdom-preaching activity.)

  Notice that now, it is once again Jesus who does the judging and separating. Excerpts from paragraphs 6-8:

  Why Does Jesus Christ Come? Although present as King since 1914, (some doctrines die hard!) Jesus Christ must yet judge systems and individuals before executing judgment on those he finds to be wicked. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:10). . . . In the near future, Christ will judge people of the nations on the basis of how they have acted toward his brothers yet on earth. We read: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats..." -- Matthew 25:31-46 . . . As shown in the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus executes final judgment upon all the ungodly."

  There have been other articles which "warn" the Witnesses that the celestial signs will actually appear and that events will make it perfectly clear that what mankind is seeing is Christ's (dare I say it?) return.

  So I gave the elders the following summation of my understanding, and asked them to correct me if I was wrong:

  • First comes Christ's presence when he assumes authority over the heavens and the earth
  • Next comes the Great Tribulation
  • Followed quickly by celestial signs, which announce
  • Christ's appearance which ushers in
  • Judgment/Jehovah's Day (during which Christ's judgment on behalf of his Father will be readily visible to onlookers), and then
  • The Thousand-Year Reign

  They did NOT correct me.

  So please, Frank (or anyone else), HOW does this differ from what Christians have been preaching down through the millenia? As far as *I* can tell, only by quibbling over when Christ's presence actually began (and we know the WT dates are lies built on a lying foundation), and by the details of what the Thousand-Year Reign means exactly. Oh, and that Jesus' "brothers" in Matthew's parable account are those Witnesses who claim to be specially "anointed" to the exclusion of other professed Christians.

  Yep! Inching closer to mainstream Christianity on this one. And some of us DID notice, Watchtower!

  Warmly,

  outnfree