What is the SIGNIFICANCE of the Astounding KORAN Manuscript discovery ?

by TerryWalstrom 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TerryWalstrom
    TerryWalstrom

    Bart Ehrman's blog reveals some very interesting facts about the recent discovery of a manuscript of the KORAN.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKSxmo9Moqk

    "In case anyone is missing the significance of that, here is a comparison. The first time we have any two-page manuscript fragment of the New Testament is from around the year 200 CE. That’s 170 years after Jesus’ death in 30 CE. Imagine if we found two pages of text that contain portions, say, of the Sermon on the Mount, in almost exactly the same form as we have them in what is now our Gospel of Matthew, and suppose that these pages received a carbon-14 dating of 30 BCE – 40 CE. Would we be ecstatic, OR WHAT???"

    ____________

    "If these pages of the Qur’an do indeed show that the text of the Qur’an is virtually the same in, say 630-40 CE as it is in 1630-40 as it is in 2015, that would suggest that Muslims are indeed correct that at least in some circles (it would obviously be impossible to prove that it was true in *all* circles), scribes of the Qur’an simply didn’t change it. "


    __________________

    BART RAISES AN IMPORTANT QUESTION WELL WORTH ASKING:


    "If Muslim scholars over the centuries – from the very beginning – made dead sure that when they copied their sacred text they didn’t change anything, why didn’t Christian scribes do the same thing??? "


    "Christian scribes did not do the same thing. We have many thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament. They all have mistakes in them. Lots of accidental mistakes (hundreds of thousands) from times that scribes were inept, inattentive, sleepy, or otherwise careless; and even lots of mistakes that appear to be places that scribes altered the text to make them say something other than what it originally said."


    "For Christians the New Testament was a sacred book, the Word of God. Why didn’t they *make sure* that it never got changed? I can understand on one level why they didn’t. The scribes who copied it, especially in the early period, were not professionals. In the early centuries, the copyists were simply the local people who happened to be literate who could do a decent job. And they made lots of mistakes and changed the text in places intentionally. But why didn’t anyone go to the trouble of making sure that didn’t happen? It’s a genuine question."

    Ehrman goes on to point out an important fact:

    New Testament manuscripts all differ from one another and contains many thousands (hundreds of thousands) of differences among them, so that even though we can be relatively sure of what the authors wrote most of the time, there are numerous places of disagreement and some of these places really matter. There are some passages where we will probably never know the exact wording.

    That may not be the case with the Qur’an.

    "The fact that you do (or do not) know what a book originally said, has no bearing – no bearing at all, not a single bearing – on the question of whether you can trust it or not. It is completely irrelevant to the question. An absolute non sequitur. I wish Christian apologists would learn this, instead of continuously filling people’s heads with nonsense. Being the best-attested book from antiquity has no bearing on the question of whether the things that are said in the New Testament are true. No bearing at all."


    "We appear to have evidence – better evidence than, say, for the Gospel of Matthew, or Paul’s letter to the Romans, or the epistle to the Hebrews – that the Qur’an was (at least by some scribes) very accurately copied over the centuries from the time it was produced. Does that “prove” that you can trust what it has to say? Of course not. But for historians it is an absolutely stunning, marvelous, and wonderful discovery nonetheless."



  • TerryWalstrom
    TerryWalstrom

    Ehrman says this about the process of dating the manuscript:

    "Let me say that carbon-14 dating is indeed a science, but it’s not a highly exact science. It dates organic material based on the deterioration of its carbon-14 isotope, and so can give a range of dates that are statistically determined to be of relative accuracy. Even so. This dating is remarkable. The dating was done by a lab devoted to such things in Oxford. It turns out that there is a 95% chance that these pages were produced between 568 and 645 CE. How good is that? The prophet Mohammed, who (in traditional Islamic teaching) was responsible for producing the Qur’an was engaged in his active ministry in 610-632 CE. These pages may have been produced during his lifetime or in a decade or so later."

  • Saintbertholdt
    Saintbertholdt

    Nice post.

    The best example I found of willful tampering is in the Old Testament regarding the height of Goliath.

    The Qumran fragments (250 BCE) and Josephus (200 ACE) both contradict the earliest OT manuscripts. Turns out Goliath was about 6 foot 5. Tall but not a Giant.

  • dyakoub
    dyakoub

    The reason that the Qur'an can maintain a more accurate transcription than the Christian canon, I think is reliant on two things:

    1) The differing attitudes towards Christian Scripture and the Qur'n by Christians and Muslim respectively. The Qur'an, in the Islamic tradition is the Perfect Word of God in Arabic revealed by the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, who recited it and is the Holiest of Holies in the ephemeral world. It was learned by reciters of the first generation (within a culture of oral literature/recitation. On the other hand, the bible 66-77(?) different texts compiled throughout 1,550 years. There was no Christian canon until about the 5th century. Different people followed different scriptures, let alone did anyone memorize "it".

    2) The Qur'an is written in verse and thus makes its memorization infinitely easier than Christian scripture (bar the Psalms). Thus, with a group of memorizers there can be consensus as to what the text is supposed to say, and rectification to alterations. The Qur'an is meant to be performed rather than read in the Ambrosian style. This is completely different than the Christian texts which were read in isolation such as monks and copied similarly.

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila
    Saintbertholdt
    Turns out Goliath was about 6 foot 5. Tall but not a Giant.

    That means Shaq is taller.

    Image result for shaq height

  • oppostate
    oppostate


    @John Aquila.

    Who in their right mind would pick a fight with Shaq? Definitely not me, even if I had a slingshot. He's usually quite smiley, but if he ever gave a look of being upset I'd be running the other way reeeaaaaalllll quick.

    ==================================


    @Terry

    Mohammed (the pedophile) was illiterate. Other people wrote the stuff after he died. Originally there were different versions. But Mohammedans being who they are, will chop off one's head for saying different. Heck! Even printing the Qur'an was illegal until the eighteenth century. If you smuggled a printed copy of the Qur'an into the Ottoman Empire your head would roll.

    Do I really give a hoot what they found in Birmingham and how old it is. Yes, for historical reasons, it shows how fanatical the early followers were that they'd chop someone up for not towing the party line, and they are still at it over a millennium and a half, blowing each other up in mosques, because some are Sunni and some are Shi'a.

    I've no respect for Sharia law, the hadith, nor any Surah.

    Recite! Yeah, WTH the guy was an illiterate who liked having sex with a preteen! What a prophet, my foot!


  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    Dyakoub, absolutely true! If any here have not heard the Quran recited, it is indeed verse-it often actually rhymes. Those who listened and heard would repeat, word for word the words claimed to be from God. Believers checked each other to keep accountability.

    The Bible is at times so profound and beautiful and wise, but there is no claim made that it is directly speaking the words from our Creator. The presumption that the Bible that we have today is indeed the scriptures that WERE inspired by God is kind of questionable even among Christians. All that being said, some really good stuff clearly did come through. Too bad none of us know what GOD inspired and what men just wrote off the cuff or pseudonomynously(?) recounted in the gospels and torah.

    All that being said, its not a big issue in Islam other than minor bragging rights, maybe, that this "discovery" happened :) I never heard of any Muslim question that it was original, though I have seen some websites questioning it (most anti Muslim). No believer debates it much-the long standing custom of recitation has removed that particular issue from being a concern for Muslims.

    HADITH (sayings), though, Muslims debate about that like Christians do the Bible, theology, doctrines, christology etc., altogether. OY! It is interesting in that hadith is NOT considered to be inspired at all. It is argued about by muslims like the Bible is by christians.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy
    How many actual pages were found Terry?
  • JeffT
    JeffT
    What's the significance? Apparently some cults are more attached to the past than others.
  • TerryWalstrom
    TerryWalstrom

    CRAZYGUY: How many actual pages were found Terry?

    Consisting of two parchment leaves, the manuscript in Birmingham contains parts of what are now Chapters 18 to 20.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragments-university-birmingham.html

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