Russell the messenger

by Beans 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • RR
    RR
    Please....I am trying to understand if Russell is considered a Prophet Of God? and if he is considered a Prophet Of God,,,,,Then how could he ever be wrong on prophecy?

    Prophet? I don't know anyone who believes he was a prophet of God. He never claimed such a role, and neither do Bible Students credit him with such a role.

    Also The Pyramid thing. Of course it could be acurate and still not be from Our Creator......remeber The Morning Stars Apluaded when Jehovah created the earth.......so guess who was hanging around when Jehovah did everything? Don't you think The Original Serpent picted a few things up? Since staying away from idols is a bible command....why would then Jehovah use one to teach His People? I think imperfect humans have a hard enough time figuring things out.

    I didn't know the Great Pyramid was an idol. Do you have any information to that effect? That that was its original purpose to be worshipped?

    RR

    Edited by - RR on 21 December 2002 18:36:13

  • RR
    RR
    I have never been comfortable with the fact that Jesus is Michael any more that I feel comfortable with him being the Pope. I admit, I really don't know.

    Let me just say that this is something you'll have to study out yourself. I could send you some information on the Jesus being Michael issue. The Pope issue is a bit more complex, it all stems from a reading of Revelation 12. Read it and tell me if you think Michael whether it be Jesus or just an angel IS THE Michael spoken of in Daniel.

    Are you saying pyramidology is still one of the Bible Students beliefs? I am not saying it is wrong, I don't know enough about it. When I first found out that Russell was interested in this subject, I was amazed. The JWs never tell you this and, if it was one of the main beliefs of their founder, they should discuss this openly.

    I have to admit, I syudy my Bible, not the pyramid, that being said, I do find it interesting, and there IS something to it that smacks of it being of God.

    When I have read about Russell (various sources) he comes across as a very humble, mild man which is why I wanted to find out more about him. When Rutherford came to power, how many stayed with Russell's teachings?

    He was a humble man, but he was also a business man. As to the split? Various Bible Students left during various times, it has been estimated that between 1917 and 1932 about 75% of the ORIGINAL Bible Students left, of course that seems like a large number, but consider that during that 15 year period, the Society's ranks grew via their new witnessing techniques, door to door and street witnessing.

    Today although the Bible Students are just a fraction of the size of the JW's, they are still international and are still independent of each other, just as they were during Russell's day.

    I know there was a certain amount of conflict and many BSs couldn't get along with Rutherford or his methods of running the organisation. As a JW, I assumed the headship was passed along from Russell to Rutherford in a smooth and loving manner - I was never aware of the frictions involved. I thought all previous presidents of the society all agreed and were in harmony - but then I was a JW for many years and swallowed everything they told me.

    No, this is a myth the Society likes the rank-and-file to believe. The Bible Student ecclesia I serve with is the oldest Bible Student class in the world. Having been formed in the 1880s and deparated from the Society in 1917, simply because the elders in the class KNEW Rutherford personally and would not support the Society knowing he was president. His reputation preceded him.

    There are many reasons as to why many left, the way Rutherford became president was illegal and underhanded. he was dishonest and while many stayed because they believed the Lord would fix it, the Lord allowed it, and many left as the years went by the Rutherford's grip became tighter. Those who gave up their Christian liberty stayed, those who wanted to voice their Christian liberty, were either forced out or left on their own.

    From your remarks, I take it you think there is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas or birthdays. Again, I don't have any opinion on this - I think you should be free to decide. It's just funny that Russell's present day organisation demonise it.

    Holidays among Bible Students is a personal matter, personally I don't know too many Bible Students who have birthday parties except those who have children, as to Christmas, some do, some don't. For various reasons. However Christmas is always a Christ-centered event, and quite often a time when familes get together, especially among believers and non-believers.

    And what about the cross and crown? Didn't Jesus die on a stake? Not that it really matters - he was executed and the instrument used isn't really that important. It's just that JWs make such a big point about this.

    I agree with you. It matters not what, but WHY he died. My tought is, the cross is pagan BECAUSE the very ones who put him to death were pagan. The fact remans, the day Jesus was put to death on the cross, it became a Christian symbol.

    But you're right, the Society tends to make a maountain out of a mole hill. Beating a dead horse.

    Where would I get copies of his books?

    Check out the bookstore at www.biblestudents.net

    RR

  • Focus
    Focus

    RR wrote (my bold):

    I study my Bible, not the pyramid, that being said, I do find it interesting, and there IS something to it that smacks of it being of God.

    What?

    That its construction must have involved the back-breaking labor, torture or death of thousands of hapless slaves? Ah, I see.

    --
    Focus
    (Shades of Deuteronomy Class)

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    rebel,

    : 3. Leviathan was a locomotive

    Nope. That was that wacko crackpot Clayton Woodworth, who, fortunately died of acute vegetarianism and tee-totalism, both of which were obviously dangerous to his health.

    Or maybe they weren't, but nevermind. It was he who said that.

    RR,

    Fortunately, though you and I disagree on many things about Charles Russell, we never have harsh words between us about those disagreements. I would wish that other posters were as civilized as you. I still disagree with you, but I admire and salute you on your civility and will continue to do so.

    There is a book about Charles and Maria in the works, by the way. I'm sure it will be worthy of many a hearty debate.

    Merry Christmas, RR!

    Farkel

    Edited by - Farkel on 22 December 2002 2:35:39

  • Utopian_Raindrops
    Utopian_Raindrops

    RR 1st I want to thank you for answering all my questions. You are a very kind man and mild manored.

    Now.....lol, I answer you....

    "I didn't know the Great Pyramid was an idol. Do you have any information to that effect? That that was its original purpose to be worshipped?"

    Maybe The Pyramids were not the whole Idol....but they were made for thier religion....a religion that had nothing to do with Jehovah God.

    Here is quote from Nova...

    This is where our history of Egypt begins, in the shadow of the Great Pyramid of Giza, where stone meets sky as a testament to one of the greatest civilizations on earth. Here, on the plateau of Giza, 2,300,000 blocks of stone, some weighing as much as 9 tons, were used to build an eternal tomb for a divine king.

    Five thousand years ago, the fourth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom was a highly advanced civilization where the kings, known as pharaohs, were believed to be gods. They lived amidst palaces and temples built to honor them and their deified ancestors.

    Pyramids How does the pyramid fit into early Egyptian life? Pyramids today stand as a reminder of the ancient Egyptian glorification of life after death, and in fact, the pyramids were built as monuments to housethe tombs of the pharaohs. Death was seen as merely the beginning of a journey to the other world. In this society, each individual's eternal life was dependent on the continued existence of their king, a belief that made the pharaoh's tomb the concern of the entire kingdom.

    You see RR Pyramids may not have been the entire idol but were a part of worshiping thier Pharaoh who was considered a GOD. What would this have to do with The True God? Why would he even allow this to have anything to do with Him? Why confuse us imperfect humans with more puzzels?

    If one were to become a bible student....would they be subject to sometimes listen do speaches about The Pyramid and it's connection to God.....like say at a convention?

    As always our Focus puts perspective on the subject...." That its construction must have involved the back-breaking labor, torture or death of thousands of hapless slaves?"

    Good form as always Focus...gotta love ya!!

    Here is a link to The Nove Site if you wish to go there.....

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/excavation/

    Again....thank-you for your answers RR......I enjoy reading your posts at any Forum

    Agape,

    Utopian_Raindrops

  • archangel01
    archangel01

    I think of it this way. C Taze R. was on to something now its up to us to put it all together with things happening in our day.The end must be close, but the good old Q is When? Reading the gospal and finding out what is literal and what applys to our time is the Key.Remember when JOHN saw the vision of REV. he saw into the future, our time at some point. So we have to think like JOHN and then relate it to our world.Like for example JOHN saw lots of different animals.We know that its not real animals but animals that appear on flags from each land and we see that with the UN or GOVERMENTS of our day.I know its deep but maybe somehow someone will put it all together or maybe it will all play out and we will find out as time moves on etc.

  • rebel
    rebel

    RR,

    Thank you for your replies - they are very interesting and I would welcome more info on Jesus being Michael - I have never understood that. You can email it to me or post it here. I am interested in finding out more about Russell also, especially his relationship with Rutherford.

    Archangel,

    Do you think that we should be able to understand Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel etc without all this detective work? Why are some parts symbolic and others not, and how do we know which is which? I am always puzzled at the way God had the Bible written in such a peculiar way, as if he deliberately doesn't want us to understand it. It could just as easily have been written in a clear, simple-to-understand way so that there was no room for doubt. Do you have any opinion on this- it is something that I have often wondered about - I get really annoyed sometimes when I can't understand things.

  • link
    link

    rebel, I have to go along with you on this one.

    I only ever got as far as Un-baptised Publisher because of this very thing. I just could not understand the extremely complicated ins and outs of it all.

    I was told that it was not necessary for me to understand it, just believe it. "Have faith in us" they said, "would we ever lie to you", "just believe us" etc. I have found this to be exactly what makes the JW tick despite their protestations that they do understand it.

    During my studies I searched for people who claimed to have a good understanding of the "truth". I asked a few of them identical questions on understanding scriptural matters and on many occasions got completely different answers to the same question.

    Whatever they might say to the contrary they do not all have the same understand of it, however long they have been in it.

    It is all based on new light and waiting on Jehovah.

    Is it necessary, or even possible, to have a complete understanding? I dont think so. If it is how do you explain the JWs doctrines to an illiterate Batonka tribesman? Because if he doesnt understand it he cant join up to be saved at Armageddon.

    The other problem that I had was that I was supposed to go out and convert others to beliefs that I could not even understand myself and everybody else in the congregation would probably explain differently. This bothered me but no one else in the congregation even gave it a thought. "This is the truth" they said "so it has to be right".

    The fact that their Kingdom Message (1914 etc) was completely different to the message preached by Jesus just did not seem to bother them.

    Whether it is the teachings of Pastor Russell or the Watchtower its just far too complicated to be believable for me and I guess many others who might think it is necessary to at least understand the principles of it before saying that they believe it and start preaching it to others.

    link

  • gumby
    gumby

    All I can say is that his "The Divine Plan of the Ages" is the BEST outline that I have ever studied.

    Hey RR, I would like to add to farkles comment about your kindness, and your cool you always keep.......it IS admired. I'm not that good at it.

    As for your above words "outline" ...do you mean his IDEA of biblical truth?

    It IS obvious you feel he got it right and the rest are wrong. Wheather it be russell, J. smith, Ellen white, Jesus, someone always has it right and the other wrong.........anyway.....thats not my main point.

    If russell got it right...or more correct than the others.....why does God select from isolated areas, men he reveals stuff to.....when he knows there is no way in hell the rest of mankind will ever hear about this stuff.eg; the flood, Jesus, the bible.

    How does moo foo chow know about CT, or osama mcfaden, or anyone?

    His Outline is a goody according to you and those who "stick by him" and yet 99% of mankind cannot tell you one thing about him. Is god partial or something? What's to happen to all the rest who have not heard?

  • RR
    RR
    gumby asked: "If russell got it right...or more correct than the others.....why does God select from isolated areas, men he reveals stuff to.....when he knows there is no way in hell the rest of mankind will ever hear about this stuff.eg; the flood, Jesus, the bible."

    That's a good question. And you know, that is exactly how the Lord planned it. First let me just say, it isn't a matter of "russell got it right." because I have yet to meet a Bible STudent who believed it got it ALL right, he made mistakes, and he sertainly did own up to those mistakes, he chnaged his mind on a few issues, and there were times when he gave two or more interpretations of what he believed, and often times he even admitted he didn't know and asked if anyone out there had a beter understanding to contact him.

    However, his outline is by far the best I have seen, in certain areas the details may be hazy, and there lies the room for disagreements and debate, but it doesn't destroy the plan.

    For instance, if we were to say 607 is bogus, or if it were proven without a shadow of a doubt that it was wrong, then for the Society he causes a big problem, nbecause their whole theollogical and organizational structure is based on 1914. Not sure with Russell, because 1914 was only the ending of the gentile times, as he put it, "it's only one string off the harp."

    As to God's selections? If you are an advocate of the 144,000, then you would have to agree that in this vast world and for 2,000 years God has been selecting those who would reign with his Son, 144,000 in 2,000 years is not a lot. It would be one here, and one there! We're told that God chose the foolish ones of this world to confound the mighty, in the eyes of man and the orthodox Churches, we are foolish.

    It's a special class of individuals, the invitation is out there, you accept it, and do the best you can. If you are faithful unto death, then you receive a crown of life.

    In C.T. Russell's "Plan" there is something for everyone, the Church NOW, the world of mankind tomorrow in the Kingdom. Unlike the Churches and the Society who believe in salvation now or second death.

    That is what is meant by the term a "ransom for all." Everyone benefits.

    RR

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