Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion) (page 2)

heathen

I think not .To give the modern day jews any more prestige due to their lineage would only fuel the zionist movement that I find to be most nauseating. Those people just need to realize they are not the heir to whatever land they are now trying to possess and learn that for any hope of peace they need to be far more tolerant and willing to share than they are now .

Mary

Frank, I'm certainly not screaming at you and I'm sorry if you took it that way.......I read your post again...........I must be mis-reading it cause I came to the same conclusion as I did the first time...........

onacruse

Cookie, I didn't participate in the threads you mention (except for one short post), but imho your inquiry here has merit, if only by reason of your moderate tone.

Arthur Hertzberg says (Judaism, p. 28): "But why did God choose this people? There are several partial answers: the merits of their ancestors, chiefly Abraham, who accepted the One God and broke with idolatry; their comparative virtue; their humility and their faithfulness. The first reason, the argument based on the merit of Abraham, recurs everywhere in Jewish literature, and especially in the liturgy."

Well, if this is the case, then knowing/proving direct descent from Abraham would have considerable value! Sorta like being a blood relative of the Rockefellers, eh?

Interesting that Hertzberg goes on to say (p.35): "Judaism does accept converts. They are indeed especially precious to God. Their virtue is not so much that they have accepted the Jewish faith, for good men can attain salvation in their own religions. It is that they have taken upon themselves the special burden of Jewish destiny and obligation of becoming part of a priest-people, by choice and adoption 'children of Abraham.' "

From this I would conclude that the writers of the Abrahamic story, or at least the expounders of that story, want to convey exactly the impression that many (most?) non-Jews get...that it ain't what you know, it's who your father was.

Just my thought. Not being Jewish, or having had any Jewish friends, I can't speak from any personal knowledge, and may be misinterpreting.

Craig

cookie

Heathen:

The last thing I would want to do (with any discussion) would be to give

fuel to the Zionist movement.

 Frankly, I agree with something that Simon said on another thread:I,too,

feel that there is something more reprehensible about people who

SHOULD KNOW BETTER. And there are many of them that do. But militant

Zionists are obviously not part of the Jewish group that has learned

that lesson.

They have actually looked to Nazi Germany for many of their cues.

(very recently even referring to the warsaw ghetto experience for ideas

of oppression!)

WE hear constantly about how important it is for us 'NEVER to FORGET'

what happened during the Holocaust.

And I am in FULL AGREEMENT with the reasoning behind it. It's only the

oppressor class who benefits by minimizing that atrocity.

We are reminded that the horrors of the Holocaust;must never be forgotten

so that it never occurs again. Yet, What do we find occuring at this very

moment by those who SHOULD KNOW BETTER? We find oppression, persecution,

murder,ghettos,etc;and according to news reports, Israel has even created

a biological weapon that specifically targets Arabs. If we remember the

Holocaust, shouldn't we recognize what's happening in Israel to be nazi

in spirit? There is only one reason for that kind of arsenal. The idea of

Ethnic Cleansing is abhorent to many Jews of conscience,(be it

re-location to Jordan or outright genocide)but obviously not with

the militant Zionists that are no better than a mirror image of

previous nazi oppressors.

Opened eyes,ears, minds, and hearts cannot possibly deny the afinity

between the two. But the evil irony of it all is mind boggling.

No, we should never forget ,lest we miss out on the opportunity

to identify that same ugly spirit wherever and whenever it raises its

head.{Nazism/Zionism: almost an identical anagram in word,but certainly

 a fraternel twin in spirit}

The subject of Abraham is of great interest to me (on many levels),

including the historical (metaphorical?)animosity beween Isaac and

Ishmael.(both heirs of Abraham) But Sarah's attitude and influence

in all of this intrigues me most.

Cookie <

Mum

Cookie, why not call a rabbi in your area and ask him or someone in his congregation for some guidance about books to read, classes to take, and visiting the synagogue. I recently read Victor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning, and found it a fascinating account of what one man learned from the holocaust and the course his life took afterward. I tried reading The Diary of Ann Frank, but only got so far because I couldn't handle the deep sadness that came over me. Elie Wiesel's book, Night, is also a widely recognized work about the holocaust, but I have not had the courage to read it either.

I'm sure you can find some good info right in your community.

Regards,

SandraC

cookie

Craig, thanks for answering.

you wrote:

There are several partial answers: the merits of their ancestors, chiefly Abraham, who accepted the One God and broke with idolatry; their comparative virtue; their humility and their faithfulness. The first reason, the argument based on the merit of Abraham, recurs everywhere in Jewish literature, and especially in the liturgy."

So whether we view the story as literal or not are we looking at spiritual qualities (ie.humility and faithfulness)? as indicated above?

or the physical component as indicated by what you wrote below:

"From this I would conclude that the writers of the Abrahamic story, or at least the expounders of that story, want to convey exactly the impression that many (most?) non-Jews get...that it ain't what you know, it's who your father was."

Or could both be part of the understanding that we glean from the story:?

That within the loins of Abraham we will find either a Spiritual or Fleshly inclination. One who seeks a higher ground than the dirt beneath one's feet might be willing to yeild some or even all of that dirt to his neighbor if he were humble enough."

I found this statement that you wrote of interest :"Judaism does accept converts."

" They are indeed especially precious to God"

For some reason, it warmed my heart to read that.

Thanks,

Cookie

cookie

MUM:

Good suggestions

After leaving the WT, I had a tremendous void and I did feel that I could get something from the Jewish community, that is when I had my first visit to a Yeshiva.

I then responded to an article in the paper that spoke of the importance of Shabat(?) it is an all night gathering and it is supposed to be very important, so I inquired about it and we went. (stayed until until 5:30 in the next morning)

It was comical ,because while we were in synagogue ,no one knew that we were not Jewish, but afterwards we were all invited into another room,and having been to meetings for so many years, I did what came naturally and took out my notebook and pen ,but it gave us away!

During break, one of the women approached us and TOLD us that we were not Jewish and she knew it. ! On Shabat, you don't drive in a car and you don't take notes!

Oh God!Just like the Kingdom Hall they have those kind of ladies too! LOL

During this intermission, I did converse with one of the older men(not a rabbi). He was a GYN by profession but he appeared to be one of the leaders.I am sorry to say that I was very disappointed in his answers to me.

When we left, we both felt we had just been to something very similar to the Kingdom Hall.

So I searched books instead. I read one quote of Elie Weisel. It was THE turning point in my WT exit.

He wrote: (Paraprasing) 'When you meet your maker, he's not going to ask you 'Why didn't you become famous ?Why didn't you change the world,? or Why didn't you become the Messiah?

He's going to ask, Why didn't you become you? The only person in the world who had the potential to become you?"

The man reached me and I have had a special fondness for him ever since.

Man's Search for Meaning sounds like something I might really benefit from, Mum

I sincerely thank you for mentioning it.

Cookie

Realist

cookie,

good post!

i read similar books...the whole genesis account is completely made up (considering the stuff written in there its not quite surprising ). maybe these stories indeed revolve around some tribe leader...but what the hell...who cares?

heathen

I can agree with some of what you said cookie . zionist - nazi very simular in the propaganda .I was also reading a little about the the abrahamic seed and came to the part when noah blessed the shem seed that produced abraham I would say there lies part of the answer. Genisis 9:24-27

Simon said,(referring to Jewish discussion)

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