Women ministers

by Pleasuredome 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  JosephAlward

  Joseph Malik: If you simply would take the time to read the very next verse you would see Paul's wrath raise in this letter when he said: 36 What? And then he rebukes them in no uncertain terms by saying to them: came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? That put them and this teaching in its place.

  Joseph Alward: Paul's comments immediately preceding, and after, his comment about women being silent put his teaching in perfect perspective--one which is totally opposite to the one you see.

  Your interpretation of Pauls comments in Verses 34 and 35 is impossibly incompatible with the verses preceding, and following. Before I comment further, here are the relevant verses (I have underlined key words):

  33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. 34 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church...everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (1 Corinthians 14:33-40)

  The context of verses 33-40 is clearly one of maintaining serenity. Just before Paul warns against women speaking in church, he notes that God is not a god of disorder, but of peace. Then, after he states that women must remain silent, he reminds his audience once again that everything should be done in an orderly way. Is it not perfectly clear that the command for silence is totally consistent with his statements about peace and order in this passage, and cannot possibly be a false teaching?

  Unless you wish to argue that Paul was teaching that God being a god of peace and order is a false teaching, then it is almost impossible to understand why you would believe that Paul wanted his listeners to repudiate Verse 35, in which he counsels against women speaking out in churches. How could the first and last verses be true teachings about peace and order be true, yet the middle one about women keeping silent in church be false?

  Furthermore, the fact that Paul states that his teaching is "as the Law says" makes it clear that his statement about women remaining in submission is not a false teaching, as you seem to be claiming.
  
  This passage, together with the one in which he points to Eve's mistake in the garden as one of the reasons he would not abide women to teach men, make the teaching that women are not allowed to teach or lead men one of the clearest teachings in the entire Bible.

  Now, I'm completely in favor of women having at least as much authority as men in church, and that includes being the head of the church, but I hope that those who hold this same view also understand that the Bible teaches just the opposite. One can believe that God wants women to be ministers, or one can believe that the Bible is the word of God, but one cannot believe both.

  Edited by - JosephAlward on 22 December 2002 0:40:28

  Edited by - JosephAlward on 22 December 2002 0:41:18

  Edited by - JosephAlward on 22 December 2002 0:42:3
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  JosephMalik

  Joseph Alward : Paul's comments immediately preceding, and after, his comment about women being silent put his teaching in perfect perspective--one which is totally opposite to the one you see.

  Your interpretation of Pauls comments in Verses 34 and 35 is impossibly incompatible with the verses preceding, and following. Before I comment further, here are the relevant verses (I have underlined key words):

  JosephAlward,

  Just where do you get the idea that these are Pauls comments? The Corinthians wrote Paul a letter and he was responding to it point by point. My comments were compatible with the way Paul wrote and the better part of 1 Corinthians is spent responding to their letter to him. It reads very much like a thread here on this board. For example: Paul corrected them regarding the confusion they were causing when speaking in tounges which he gleaned from their letter (vs26) and said:

  31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. {confusion: Gr. tumult, or, unquietness}

  In saying: By ye may all prophesy . . . that all may learn, Paul included women. He said this because of the view the Corinthians had on this matter where they said to him in their letter.

  The Corintihans wrote to Paul:

  34 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church...everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. (1 Corinthians 14:33-40)

  And Pauls response to it is: 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? Paul put them in their place. He slapped down such thinking in no uncertain words. No confusion, no mis-application, no impossibly incompatible comments here. And we get this kind of back and forth discussion in Pauls letter from chapter 7 all the way to its end. This is the context in which this letter should be understood. Robinsons Word Pictures states:

  {Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote} (peri de wn egraqate). An ellipsis of peri toutwn, the antecedent of peri wn, is easily supplied as in papyri. The church had written Paul a letter in which a number of specific problems about marriage were raised. He answers them _seriatim_. The questions must be clearly before one in order intelligently to interpret Pauls replies.

  This is the problem many have, and this is why many have so much difficulty understanding Pauls work. Something Peter noticed and commented on as well. Joseph
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  JosephAlward

  Thanks for the discussion, Joseph. I think I have said all that I wanted to in this thread.