Surely, since "Theocratic Warfare" is unknown (Mr Toole) and the Bible clearly mandates obedience to secular authorities (Mr Toole and at least one elder), Mr O'Brien should face a JC over his blatant attempt to mislead the RC?
royal commission so far
by zeb 22 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Lehman
What's the update on Jackson appearing at the arc? -
Slidin Fast
They rely on misapplied scripture when it suits, Matt 18, the two witness rule. Why can't that be reasoned on? Can say an expert witness or the like be the second witness? There is plenty of room for 21st century re-interpretation.
The inconsistency of on one hand interpretation has been watered down but the two witness tule cannot be touched.
The sudden inviolable right of the victim to a decision only to be made by him/her self to report or not. Where is the scriptural unbreakable law for that?
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Listener
I just wrote my opinion about the scripture in Matthew and to me it seems clear that it is not talking about having witnesses to confirm guilt. This is what I wrote on another forum and would appreciate it if someone could tell me if my understanding is not correct.
<<Matthew 18:15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. >>
This scripture is not applied by the JWs, somehow they extract a two witness policy from it. In the first part it authorizes a person who is aware of the other persons sin to go and point out their fault, to discuss it with them in the hope that the sinner will recognize their wrongdoing and correct their ways, that is how they will be 'won over'. But if he doesn't acknowledge his sin as a wrongdoing then the next verse says that the first person needs to bring along another one or two persons so that the sinner now has two or three persons testifying that what he is doing is wrong and needs to correct his way. If the person still does not acknowledge what he is doing as sinful then the matter needs to be brought up with the church. This could mean one of two things. That the leaders of the church, who would be considered the final authority on a matter would then need to also provide testimony to the fact that the person has sinned and needs to correct his way or the second meaning could be that the whole of the congregation should be brought into the matter. Then if he still doesn't listen he is no longer to be treated as a Brother.
How is this different to the establishment of the two witness policy that the JWs apply? Clearly in the fist instance the sin has already been established and even when two or three are brought into the situation and there is no acknowledgement of the sin then there is a third step and that is to bring in the Church, not to establish the sin but to have the sinner acknowledge that what he has done is wrong. Then if he still doesn't acknowledge his sin the matter is to be brought to the Church. If they cannot turn the sinner around from his wrongdoing BECAUSE he has not acknowledged his sin before two or three witnesses even, then the Church should no longer treat him as a brother.
The start of the scripture at Verse 15 sets the scene. "If your brother or sister sins go and point out their fault" It says nothing about establishing the sin, it is already a given. It is the reverse of what the JWs interpret it as. Instead of having witnesses to establish the sin there are witnesses to help make the sinner aware that he is at fault
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Vidiot
This is getting to be a loooooong list...
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KillerJones
The 'Theocratic Warfare' term is still used, however, it is kept to higher levels in the borg. When I served as an international servant in Paraguay, the missionaries would take us into unassigned territory. To get past the army check points, we would show them our NGO(Non-Government Org.) cards issued from the United Nations.
I asked about these cards, and I was told it was all part of Jehovahs' theocratic warfare...and to keep it under my hat.
Why i didnt wake up sooner...
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Vidiot
@ KillerJones...
Ah.
Another piece of the puzzle...
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Listener
Killer Jones, I just don't know what to say. That information is huge.
When was this and do you still have the card?
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Watchtower-Free
25 CLIPS of Australia Royal Investigation into Jehovah's WItnesses
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpziVM4MyTEDLQh8vvbWcllzSqaiI12JD -
flipper
Closer To Fine's comment about these WT elders or attorneys " throwing themselves under the bus to protect the GB " is very accurate. As I mentioned on another thread the GB and WT leaders have mind controlled and indoctrinated these elders SO badly that they will even stand up on behalf of the governing body to support crimes committed . Which makes them accomplices to the covering over of child abuse criminally. It's called the " Stockholm Syndrome " where a captive identifies with their captors - in this case the GB and WT Society leaders. Angus Stewart recognized this fact when he called the JW's a " captive " organization. No acceptable way to exit or leave without being shunned or punished by the WT organization. Peace out, MR. Flipper